Today’s guest is Susan King.
Susan is a registered architect and a principal at HED, one of the oldest and largest architecture and engineering firms in the country.
Show summary:
In this podcast episode, Susan King discusses her passion for architecture, her journey to becoming a licensed architect, and the challenges she faced along the way. Susan also talks about two exciting projects she is currently working on, including a conservatory built using passive house methodology and a collaboration for underserved neighborhoods in Chicago. The conversation also touches on the challenges of unique designs and building regulations.
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Intro [00:00:00]
Susan's Journey [00:00:49]
Challenges of Becoming a Licensed Architect [00:02:22]
Exciting Project: The Conservatory Apartments [00:09:55]
Passive House Certification [00:10:55]
Challenges with Building Codes [00:14:21]
Demand for Apartments and Active Adult Housing [00:20:47]
Susan King's contact information [00:23:30]
Show notes and website mention [00:23:49]
Closing remarks and call to action [00:24:01]
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Connect with Susan:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susan-king-faia-leed-ap-bd-c-lfa-0057b45/
Connect with Sam:
I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/
Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com
SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson
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Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f
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Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below:
Susan King (00:00:00) - A lot of people like to talk about net zero. These days, I view it as an important step towards net zero because think that you need to make your your project, you know, rightsize it, make it as efficient as it can be, make it using as little energy as possible. And then you can talk about trying to, you know, get all the way to to not needing any, you know, any power brought to the building.
Sam Wilson (00:00:23) - Welcome to the how to scale commercial real estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.
Sam Wilson (00:00:36) - Susan King is a registered architect and principal at one of the oldest and largest architecture and engineering firms in the country. Susan, welcome to the show.
Susan King (00:00:47) - Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Sam Wilson (00:00:48) - Absolutely.
Sam Wilson (00:00:49) - The pleasure is mine. Susan, There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?
Susan King (00:00:58) - All of them in 90s.
Sam Wilson (00:01:00) - Got it.
Susan King (00:01:02) - Okay, so where did I start? Guess I wanted to be an architect from a really, really young age. I grew up in northeastern Ohio. I was the artist in the family. I was always drawing and I studied Frank Lloyd Wright in, um, in art class and particularly Fallingwater. And that was it. After that, I'm like, that's what I want to do. And so guess fast forward several years later, graduated from college architecture degree worked, worked and became licensed and then started to kind of focus my career into housing, which has been all kinds of housing but has been the main focus of, you know, of my professional life. So when I say, yeah, I because when I say all kinds of housing mean with the exception of no single family housing, but does senior living, underserved populations, market rate, high end luxury condo, the whole student housing, the whole gamut of multifamily, you.
Sam Wilson (00:02:12) - Get to see it all. And I guess for those who are listening, I've got several architects as friends and as in-laws.
Sam Wilson (00:02:22) - I mean, getting through architecture, getting not just through school is really, really hard and then getting passed all the exams. I mean, I don't think people realize how many exams are still left when you guys graduate college.
Susan King (00:02:38) - Yeah. Yeah. So I've blocked all that out of my life, I'm sure. So. Well, and then I'll just tell a funny story that before I studied Frank Lloyd Wright and decided on architecture, I had I love animals. I'm a cat person and I wanted to be a veterinarian. And so the thing that amuses me now, looking back, is that I was like, Oh, no way. I'm not going to school for eight years to be to be a vet. And then instead I ended up going for six to become an architect. And then and then also after that's over, as you say, had to finish my I had some of my internship while as part of my schooling there's a it constantly changes so my info may be a little out of date, but it's like a 2 or 3 year internship where you're then out of school working as an architect, under supervision, people who are licensed.
Susan King (00:03:32) - And then you get to take the fun licensing exam, which in my day was when it was in person, was a one time of year. You got one shot at it. Um, I think it was 3 or 4 days of test after test after test. And then if you didn't pass all of it, you had to wait a whole year to to retake it. So, yes, it was quite an ordeal. I think I still have nightmares about like waking up and finding out I have to do that again. But today, today, it's all modernized. And I hate to sound like my parents. Like when I was your age, I had to do this, that and the other. But it's all I think it's like all year round. It still takes people a long time to get through its 8 or 9 tests. Still, that hasn't changed and it does still take them several years. Even though it's spread out, you know, they can they maybe it's worse now. They're constant.
Susan King (00:04:25) - They take you know, it's constant throughout your life until you're done. And it can take 2 or 3 years to get through all of it, right?
Sam Wilson (00:04:32) - Yeah, it's amazing. It's absolutely amazing. I just. Yeah, watching, watching one of my sister in law's get through, it was just like, oh, my gosh, does this ever end? And so years later, they're still taking and studying and just just banging their head against the desk, you know, studying day in and day out for one exam, they get 3000. Well, we got eight more to go like, Oh, right.
Sam Wilson (00:04:53) - And so good on you. Good on you for getting.
Sam Wilson (00:04:56) - Through it and getting it done. I mean, I guess I say all that to say one, It takes a lot of commitment and discipline to get that done. And then secondly, you guys have to know a lot to do what you do. And I think that's that's really, really cool. Let's let's kind of dive in, if we can, into what you particularly work on there at head and kind of well, just tell me a little bit about that.
Sam Wilson (00:05:19) - Maybe we'll, I'll ask my next questions later on.
Susan King (00:05:22) - Yeah. So, so now right. And so I'm a principal, so I'm an owner of the firm now and then. Guess that's a whole nother journey to if you even want that, you know, some architects don't know. Necessarily, you know, want that. Want that responsibility. Yeah. But I always did. I guess I'm full of jokes because the other joke I make now is guess because I get asked to speak a lot about different things and I mentor a lot. And, um, one of the other things I usually share is that I always wanted to be an owner, Um, but I thought I would be with a smaller firm. I did not see myself with a large national practice, so but on the other hand, I never wanted to be a sole proprietor either. I'm very collaborative. Um, like to bounce things off people always. Everything's a team, especially when you're coming, you know, when you're talking about building or designing buildings.
Susan King (00:06:20) - There's so many pieces to it that it's always a team effort. But the surprise to me was I always thought I'd have maybe 2 or 3 partners, you know, didn't think I'd have. I think I have 50.
Sam Wilson (00:06:32) - 50 partners.
Susan King (00:06:33) - So I'm one of 51 shareholders in the firm. So but I, I think I mentioned already, I mean, went to I graduated from the University of Cincinnati. It was a bachelor of architecture degree. And with that came some practical experience because they had I think they still have this it's a cooperative program. So it takes you six years to get your five year degree because you're after your second year, you're actually working in architectural offices. So that begins that's the beginning of your your intern period that counts towards the licensing time. So, um, so after that, I wanted to move. I worked in Chicago as a student and wanted to return here after graduate and, and that's what I did. So I worked in a few different firms all smaller. And even the firm that I joined in Chicago that became head was a 40, 50 person firm.
Susan King (00:07:33) - And um, and has formed as a it's been a series of acquisitions over the past like 20 years. Guess that's how we've grown to a national practice. So, so I've been here actually kind of a long time and I was an associate at the time that so was already licensed. And I do a bit of design, a bit of planning in all the way into the details. I spent several years doing contract administration, which is observing, observing the buildings, getting built. So I kind of had all of that under my belt before then, you know, became an owner of the of the project. And so but when I made the move to ever since I've been here, it's I came here to do multifamily housing and that's been what I've done. And like I already mentioned a lot of affordable housing and a lot of senior living at all levels of care. Um, has been my main focus. So when you ask like, what do I like? What is my day? What did my day look like? Um, uh, so it can it's different every day.
Susan King (00:08:45) - And maybe that's why I like it. Um, but it'll involve a bit of, you know, depending projects at different phases. I mentioned earlier, we have a project under construction right now, so I've got actually a couple of things under construction right now. So there's a little bit I'm not the one in the field, but, but do get involved, you know, in different things that come up that are going on during that process. But prior, prior to getting to construction, there's there's design, there's planning, there's getting the the client doing the marketing to get the project to begin with. So going all the way back to the other end of the line. So I kind of as a principal, I touch all of that.
Sam Wilson (00:09:24) - All of it, all of it, Yeah. Know and, and that's, that's amazing, first of all. But let's, let's, let's talk a little bit about a project you're most excited about right now. What's some things you're seeing because I know you got to have favorites don't lie to me and tell me you don't because there's some stuff you're like, Oh, this is really fun to work on.
Sam Wilson (00:09:42) - The other stuff, you're like, okay, that's a snooze fest. We'll do it. But that's boring.
Sam Wilson (00:09:47) - So yeah.
Sam Wilson (00:09:49) - I'll talk about the stuff that put you to sleep, talking about the stuff you're working on right now that's really, really fun and compelling for you personally.
Susan King (00:09:55) - Okay, So we'll I'll start with the one that we chatted about right before we came on live. Um, the one that is under construction. Um, it's a smaller project. It's only four stories, but it is, it's all affordable. It's called the Conservatory Apartments. It's here in the city of Chicago. And what's so I don't know if I said this already, but it's 43 studio apartment, so that's what makes it a little bit smaller than normal. Um, and it, it has a very sustainable, energy efficient green, green if you want to use that word agenda. So I really get excited. Don't really care. With the topology is. But if a project can bring together the sustainability pieces and make it happen, I think that's where that's what really gets me excited and this is one of those in the project is pursuing passive house certification, which is kind of an extreme green.
Susan King (00:10:55) - I always want to say prescriptive. I don't know if that's really right, but it's a tried and true methodology of building that is a little different than the traditional way, but it produces a very high performance envelope for the building. And I view it as a lot of people like to talk about net zero these days. I view it as an important step towards net zero because think that you need to make your your project, you know, rightsize it, make it as efficient as it can be, make it using as little energy as possible. And then you can talk about trying to, you know, get all the way to to not needing any, you know, any power brought to the building. So, so that project is about halfway done. And we had received our our design certification for Passive house and the acronym is US. So Passive House Institute, United States. There's actually a think a European or German institute as well. Um, so they are the ones that are monitoring, monitoring what we're doing and making sure we're, we're doing it all correctly.
Susan King (00:12:05) - And today actually happens to be the blower door test where they're going to think it's happening. It should be happening right now as I'm speaking, it's pumping all this air air into the building to check the whole envelope before they start doing the the cladding and everything to make sure it's as tight as it is supposed to be. So this is the first time my firm has has been able to, you know, have had the opportunity to pursue this type of certification. A lot of people might be more familiar with Leed. We've done a ton of lead and all of that. So to me, this there are these. Other methodologies out there, or if it's not really technology, but certifications that are a little more extreme green in my opinion. So like living building challenge and and passive house think that in those categories. So so that's one project. Um, I'm also I have another project that's just starting that we are actually also in Chicago but we're teamed with a, another firm from California. Um, that's part of that we just won earlier in the summer.
Susan King (00:13:15) - It was part of a design competition here in Chicago. There's for the past 3 or 4 years, there has been an initiative called Invest Southwest. And it was focused on our, the neighborhoods of Chicago to the south and to the west, trying to bring catalytic projects into neighborhoods that had previously sort of been underserved, underdeveloped and all that. And this was an initiative coming out of the mayor's office. And so it was it was highly competitive. And so there were several of those types of projects going on around the city right now. And so we're we're again, proud to be part of one of them.
Sam Wilson (00:13:54) - That's really cool. I mean, yeah, those are those are fun, fun projects for you to work on. Let's go back to the four story conservatory project for just a second. I had a question on that. When you're doing such a unique design, unique building methodology, what is that process like? Interfacing with local building codes, building inspectors? I mean.
Susan King (00:14:21) - Oh yeah.
Sam Wilson (00:14:24) - It can't be an.
Sam Wilson (00:14:25) - Easy row to hoe.
Susan King (00:14:27) - No, it was not. But think it think it's going to get easier here now and not I'm not going to say because because we we forged the way by ourselves, that's for sure. But I'm laughing because we we actually had an amazing time getting our permit a year ago. I was just pulling out my hair going, Are we ever going to get this thing out? And the interesting thing, though, about our that project and that timeline, we happen to just be paralleling it was sort of like we were just maybe just ahead, if we'd just been a couple months later, her life would have been easier. But the, the codes were changing here and have changed. Um, and so it should be I'm hoping to do another and I'm hoping the road will be easier the next time. But we actually had to ask for, um, an alternative compliance path on our, our ventilation requirements. And again, lucky for us, there was a whole group of advocates and other people who were working on this issue directly with the city of Chicago Department of Buildings to get these changes that we were asking for, um, built into the code.
Susan King (00:15:43) - And so it's just the little, you know, it was, yeah. So all of that was taking taking officially effect as we were finally pulling our permit. So our timing was just in, in parallel with it and just keep thinking that, yes, my next one and everyone who is coming behind us, it should be easier. But but historically, um, the city of Chicago, their their building code and I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I'm not the best person to be able to explain this. But it was around the things we were asking for were around ventilation and exhaust and that, um, you know, having a really tight envelope. You've got to balance it with a mechanically ventilated system so that you don't get, you know, the sick building and all of that. So it's really important, right? It's important stuff. And it's reason to be, you know, make sure you're doing it right and all of that. But, um, but, but yes, it was quite, um.
Susan King (00:16:43) - It was it was a challenge and it was long. And I do keep thinking back because last year at this time we were trying to get our the design certification piece is kind of the step where the institute signed off right before you, you know, before you start construction. And we were on while I'm anxious today that our blower that the whole building blower door test is going okay. Um a year ago it was even more.
Sam Wilson (00:17:06) - Even more more angst.
Susan King (00:17:07) - About it like are they going to approve this or are they not going to approve it? Can we get the permit out? Um, you know, is this code going to be adopted? Which it has been. And so that's pretty exciting. And, and I will then say I'll put it in Chicagoan context. So that that had been a big barrier. Our ventilation apparently we are buildings here, we're over over ventilated which of course then takes energy to sure. But if you look at if you go east, interestingly enough, to New York City and Pennsylvania and then the entire state had an initiative and then also Boston did something recently as well all all around passive house.
Susan King (00:17:50) - So to fit into your like they are already scaling passive house up. So I'm anxious for Chicago to catch up with them but because want to say think Boston like did something really radical you could kind of maybe Google it and find it. But I want to say they they built passive house straight into their code, but it might not be exactly that extreme, but it was pretty radical. And so think believe this is the way it's going. We are building differently but think we're actually building the way we're going to build in the future, right?
Sam Wilson (00:18:22) - No, And that's that's it. I mean, yeah, I look at this is obviously I'm not an architect. I'm loosely in, you know, I've owned a way too much real estate. So I see a lot of it. And I've been in the trades. I've had a business in the trades for a long, long time. And you see the way buildings are built, you see the materials being used, you see the the waste, you see the inefficiency in the building.
Sam Wilson (00:18:46) - But it's just the way it is. Like even looking here in Memphis, it's like the housing stock just in the general single family housing. It's just so old. It's so old stuff is just horribly inefficient. And it's like, my goodness, there's got to be a better way than continuing even in the new build stuff. It's just it's still that feels like it's the same. It's just the same product. But. It's going to fall apart faster. So it's like, you know, what are we.
Sam Wilson (00:19:15) - Doing?
Susan King (00:19:15) - Yeah, we should build for length, build for duration, durability, and.
Sam Wilson (00:19:21) - Go ahead.
Sam Wilson (00:19:21) - I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, no problem.
Susan King (00:19:23) - But you just made me think of the other thing. That mean we. We've dabbled in it. But the other big construction change, I would say, is modularity. Right. Mean and or you know, we see a lot of prefab components but but everyone thinks it's like kind of a no brainer that the the solution to the housing crisis is is modular units like why can't we have an apartment come out pretty much built you plug it in.
Susan King (00:19:50) - Right. And at least for whatever reason, it doesn't get off the ground like people try and it dies. And I it's a little bit frustrating to watch but think that's the other thing that that's got to happen.
Sam Wilson (00:20:03) - It's coming It's a it's a slow moving process, but it's certainly coming soon. We got just a couple of minutes here left and I've got one more question, more from a just kind of I going to call it market sentiment, but I really want to hear from you because you guys get kind of a front row seat to all the projects being built around the country to what builders are looking for, what they want to build. Coming to you guys probably saying, Hey, can we even do this? What's the possibility here in all of the housing profiles that you guys work inside of? What's the type or the product that's in most demand for you guys to be architects on and to draw up plans for and. Yeah. What?
Sam Wilson (00:20:45) - Oh, yeah.
Susan King (00:20:47) - Yeah. Good. That's a good question.
Susan King (00:20:50) - Think it's. It's apartments, but think right now. Uh, probably for the next. So things come in cycles, Right? And so I mentioned, um, our firm in our Los Angeles office kind of rode. There was a high rise housing boom there for the past ten years before Covid. And we got to do a lot, a lot of units built a pretty strong portfolio out there. And then, of course, it's on the, you know, you overbuild and then it cycles down. And so out there, we're seeing a lot of the, um, little maybe a little more suburban, less dense, but still probably 3 to 4 stories in height, but a little more sprawling, you know, apartment complexes. Um, in and we didn't, we didn't touch on senior living but think senior living is always in demand and then but there's a new and we we're pursuing a lot of these but we haven't landed anything yet. Um, there's kind of a new category in senior living called It's a terrible name, but it's called Active Active Adults.
Susan King (00:22:00) - But it's really 55 plus apartments but without any kind of medical or nursing. And they don't they're standalone. That's what maybe separates them from the continuum of care life plan, community type campuses that were being done. So I think that's on the I, you know, we're anxious to to have some of that in our portfolio. We don't yet but think it's it's coming and and it's that baby boomer the end of the baby boomer the next generation X guess you know they're like we're healthier we don't we don't consider ourselves seniors don't call us that and active adult probably isn't the right name. But that's somehow what we we've got right now, which can also have issues with with with fair housing and all of that. They have to be careful. But I'm surprised it's lasted as a as a label label.
Sam Wilson (00:22:54) - Right.
Sam Wilson (00:22:55) - That's very, very insightful. Susan, I have loved having you on the show today. Thank you for taking the time to really just break down your journey into becoming an architect, what it takes to become an architect, the types of assets you guys are working on, you know, breaking down this conservatory project with passive house there in Chicago.
Sam Wilson (00:23:15) - I think that's absolutely fascinating. You guys get a front row seat to kind of what is going on in the commercial real estate sectors across the country. So I appreciate you taking the time to come on today and share with us if our listeners want to get in touch with you or learn more about you and your firm, what is the best way to do that?
Susan King (00:23:30) - Um, I'm on LinkedIn, so that's probably, you know, you can Google my, my name with our website is W WW dot design. So. And I'm there too. So head dot design.
Sam Wilson (00:23:48) - Head dot.
Sam Wilson (00:23:49) - Design. We'll make sure we include that there in the show notes. It's a very pretty website. I should expect nothing less from an architecture firm, but yeah, very, very cool. Susan, thank you again for coming on today. I certainly appreciate it.
Susan King (00:23:59) - Okay. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Sam Wilson (00:24:01) - Hey, thanks for.
Sam Wilson (00:24:01) - Listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a.
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