Today’s guest is Patrick Grimes.
Patrick is a the Founder of Passive Investing Mastery and Invest On Main Street; 4000+ units, over 1/2 billion real estate portfolio; best selling author; strong recovery last recession; BS and MS in Engineering & MBA; traveler & adventure sports enthusiast.
Show summary:
In this episode of the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate Show, host Sam interviews Patrick Grimes, founder of Passive Investing Mastery and Invest on Main Street. Patrick discusses his journey from being a mechanical engineer to running a large private equity firm with half a billion in holdings. He introduces their recessionary acquisition fund, which aims to buy distressed properties in cash, refinance them, and quickly acquire multiple properties to create a diversified portfolio. Patrick also shares how his team uses intelligence software to identify distressed assets and the importance of agility in the current market.
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Intro [00:00:00]
Lessons from past experiences [00:04:46]
Building a recession-resilient portfolio [00:09:01]
The recessionary acquisition fund [00:11:46]
Refinancing and 1031 exchange [00:17:46]
Finding deals with distressed operators [00:20:02]
Finding Great Deals [00:21:58]
Acquisition Engine and Distressed Assets [00:22:58]
Contact Information and Book Offer [00:24:15]
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Connect with Patrick:
Book: https://investonmainstreet.com/book (promo code: HowtoscaleCRE)
Web: https://investonmainstreet.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lifeoncloudnine https://www.facebook.com/InvestOnMainStreet
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patricksgrimes https://www.linkedin.com/company/investonmainstreet
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/invest_on_main_street
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-B4rNcRiMKTnWnClyd0Ojg
Connect with Sam:
I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/
Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com
SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f
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Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below:
Patrick Grimes (00:00:00) - LED me back to a large portion, 25%. Even at Tiger, 21 of their portfolio is in real estate. And so for that, the tortoise, but not the hare means buying for cashflow. It means buying existing construction. It means not speculating, not gambling, not sliding the big stack all on green 24 and spinning the wheel.
Intro (00:00:21) - Welcome to the how to scale commercial real Estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.
Sam Wilson (00:00:34) - Patrick Grimes is the founder of Passive Investing Mastery and Invest on Main Street. He's a best selling author. He had a strong recovery from the last recession. He's also an engineer and an adventure sports enthusiast. Patrick, I bet there's a dozen more things in there that are part of your bio that are really cool that you are involved in. Thanks for coming on the show today.
Patrick Grimes (00:00:54) - Glad to be here, Sam. I've heard a lot about you from my my colleagues, and here we are finally connecting on your show today and on my panel on alternative investing tomorrow.
Patrick Grimes (00:01:04) - So we're doing a deep dive together in back to back.
Sam Wilson (00:01:07) - I'm looking forward to it. This will be great. Patrick. There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?
Patrick Grimes (00:01:17) - So I started as a mechanical engineer graduate and stuck pretty true to the path for a while, but I got some advice early on that said, you know the high tech space I was doing machine design, automation and robotics, and the owner of the company said, it's great you're going to earn a lot. You're going to have a lot of fun, but it's a wild ride. Invest in real estate, don't invest in high tech and put as much as you can as soon as you can. So that caused me to dump everything in real estate early on. Had a wild ride in real estate actually. And so. But as I progressed in my career, I found my way back to it.
Patrick Grimes (00:01:55) - And now we are a very large private equity firm. We have half a billion in holdings on the multifamily apartments, as well as some diversified energy funds. And we have a recessionary acquisitions fund, which is my which is the exciting announcement where we can win from this recession in this, as we see a bunch of great opportunities today, where I was in a losing position in 2009 and ten previously.
Sam Wilson (00:02:25) - Wow.
Sam Wilson (00:02:25) - Okay, man, there's so much here that I would love to take. There's so many rabbit trails we could go into here on your story. I just want to point out from kind of the intro, you go to school, you get a mechanical engineering degree. It takes mechanical, I would say an engineer. I love the engineers in our life. We need you. Right? You're very, very important people in our world. But it takes them a while typically to come around to making a decision. Because you are engineers, you study everything thoroughly and then make a decision. It sounds like you got out of school, got a job, and was like, sure, why not? We'll go get into real estate.
Sam Wilson (00:03:01) - What what was that process like?
Patrick Grimes (00:03:04) - So the analysis paralysis thing is real. But I managed to make in fact, I did the Do Zone podcast all about getting things done, and the guy picked on me for being an engineer the whole time.
Intro (00:03:15) - Because it is, I promise.
Patrick Grimes (00:03:17) - Yeah, it took me when I got the advice you needed to start investing in real estate. I treated it like I was going back to it, going back into another course, like I was taking electromagnetic static physics again. But I was doing it in real estate, so I was downloading guides, reading books, attending webinars, and I started learning about the highest returning deals. And so I wasn't very much interested in, like, conservatism that young. I was very much like, let's just figure out how to double and triple my money. And this was 2007. The market was never going to go down. So I pulled the trigger and learned quickly the downside of downturns.
Sam Wilson (00:03:57) - Wow. Wow. Yeah.
Sam Wilson (00:03:59) - You really you really did.
Sam Wilson (00:04:00) - And that's that's painful. I mean, one of the questions tell me if you agree or disagree with this and why. But one question I love to ask sponsors when I'm investing passively is tell me about a time when you lost money. Just because I think it's one of those things if somebody's never lost money. I have this theory that the first time they're going to lose money is when I invest with them. So I want to know, because I guess it instills some sort of confidence in me when someone's like, yeah, here's how I messed up. So what are some of those things that you are doing? Because I want to get what I really want to focus on today is, of course, your recessionary acquisition fund that you guys are launching. But how do those two, you know, comparing that to your zero 8 to 2010 experience, to what you guys are doing now? What are the lessons you learned and how are you positioning yourself differently now?
Patrick Grimes (00:04:46) - Well, it's a really great question because it's right at the heart of kind of who I am.
Patrick Grimes (00:04:50) - And my fiber. And I just spoke on it in San Francisco and had a little bit more time than that. But yeah. So back then I was looking for, again the highest returning deal, and I had very limited cash. So I was trying to leverage it up as high as I could, and I even got to 90% loan to value. And I in order to get the best terms, I personally guaranteed that loan, which meant they was I was risking. I didn't know at the time what cross Collateralization went, and signing on the loan myself meant that they could come after everything I personally owned. I was all in in one asset, right? It didn't have any diversification. I just was going big. And because I was trying to get really high returns, I wasn't buying for cashflow. I wasn't buying something that supported itself, that going in. If if the market crashed, I could just write it out, right. And I bought pre-development, not even development pre-development. And so a couple layers of speculation.
Patrick Grimes (00:05:55) - And I learned that speculation is different than investing. Buying for cash flow is different than speculation. And moving forward I you know, it did take me a number of years to recover emotionally. I was obviously it was a humiliating experience, but financially the property went I had to negotiate debt forgiveness, a property went through foreclosure, my credit got pummeled. I was able to escape bankruptcy. A lot of people did get. And maybe it would have been better if I'd done that. It would have been better if I'd done that. But I was able to escape it because I didn't want I didn't want to go that route. I got a master's in engineering in business. Started producing a lot of income again. And then I was following the breadcrumbs of the wealthy. And where do they invest? And unfortunately, it led me right back to real estate. But it led me back to investing as the tortoise, not the hare.
Sam Wilson (00:06:50) - Man. That's. Those are painful lessons. And what do they call that? Wisdom's tuition, I think, is the other way I've put it.
Sam Wilson (00:06:58) - It's like that's that's it. You have paid the tuition for that wisdom, so you led you right back to real estate, which is funny. But of course, like you said, you decided to become the tortoise. But what does that mean to you?
Patrick Grimes (00:07:14) - Right. And let me be clear when I say back to real estate, I mean for a large part of our portfolio. If you download the The Passive Investor Guide that I have on my website, it does show how 8% of that the middle class is 8% of their wealth in alternative investments. Okay, the high income and ultra wealthy have 25 to 50% of their wealth in alternative investments. So I actually am about diversification because in alternative investments, it's everything outside of Wall Street, right? It's it's real estate, maybe energy. We do energy deals as well. There's health care investments, right? There's lots of other kinds of investments, business equities to build that around in portfolio. But the breadcrumbs led me back to a large portion, 25%.
Patrick Grimes (00:08:00) - Even at Tiger, 21 of their portfolio is in real estate. And so for that, the tortoise but not the hare means buying for cash flow. It means buying existing construction. It means not speculating, not gambling, not sliding the big stack all on green 24 and spinning the wheel. So if you can buy an asset that cash flows right, that means you're putting enough down on the asset that allows it to cash flow. And you've got to look at recession resilience. So we're looking in the best markets that have shown over time to have to have the best resilience, which oftentimes there's some of the the cities in the southeastern states in Texas that are landlord friendly, that are tax advantaged and have had steady growth. And once you found a place like that, you're looking for diversified employment. You find a property that you can put a lot of capital down that'll cash flow. You got to see if it will cash flow, even if vacancies drop to where it did in past recessions. Then you've got to build a financial foundation.
Patrick Grimes (00:09:01) - I know put a very little bit down on a personally guaranteed balloon payment loan. We do long term debt or fixed interest debt or debt that is 3 to 5 years but has a rate cap. We bank and with that rate cap, we make sure that if our interest rate does rise to that cap, that we can still cash flow again means putting potentially even more down on the property, or buying the right kind of property that can cash flow in those kind of situations. And so there's a lot that I just said there. And there's other layers of the onion to dig deep, but it comes down to the the failure mode event analysis class that I took, and mechanical engineering, where you look at all the failures, you've seen, all the deals that come across my desk of operators that didn't have enough reserves, didn't put enough down, didn't have fixed debt, didn't have a low enough interest rate cap, didn't have replacement cost insurance in the case of a natural disaster. Didn't have replacement, didn't have rent insurance, revenue insurance to replace their rents.
Patrick Grimes (00:10:08) - In the case that there was a time that what residents weren't paying all these things combined right. You can put together a high risk adjusted return, meaning it's not going to be the biggest return, but you can put together a deal that will perform very strongly even in a down market.
Sam Wilson (00:10:27) - I think that's incredibly compelling. Obviously you do as well because this is what you guys are. This is your bread and butter right now. But but I think to investors today that's incredibly compelling. I don't know I don't know anybody right now. If you said, you know, if you took a random poll and of course this is I'm just making this up. But but I just can't imagine that if you took a random poll and said, hey, you know, in the next five years, do you predict economic just, you know, exuberance like the markets are going to do? Great people are going to do great. Like I think everybody's kind of overall sentiment is that good things are not in store in the near term.
Sam Wilson (00:11:03) - And so positioning, it's just it's just where we are. And so positioning yourself with these things and you've mentioned if you're listening to this show, I mean go back, hit pause and go back and listen to the 20 things Patrick just mentioned, because they were all things that as you look at deals you should be considering, but let's let's talk a little bit about the recessionary acquisition fund. I mean, I think one of the things you said is that, yeah, you're buying stuff for cash, will you're buying stuff that's well positioned, but I think you're also seeing stuff right now that may have some, some hair on it. Is that is that correct inside of it where you guys can come in kind of rescue the deal and then move it on down the line? What's, what's how does the recessionary acquisition fund work? There's the final question if I eventually got it out right.
Patrick Grimes (00:11:46) - Well, the strategy in past years, say in the last 5 or 10 plus years for real estate sponsors, has been to buy something and then hold it for 3 to 5 years plus and buy something that's a little bit below market that hasn't been renovated, and that you can renovate the units ten, 20 a month for, you know, 2 to 300 units and, and then bring it above market.
Patrick Grimes (00:12:08) - And that means you've got to buy a property. So you got to put up the equity for that. Then you got to put up the equity to to renovate it. Right. Which maybe it's another 50 or 100% of the equity you're raising to buy it. And then you got to hope that over the course of 3 to 5 years, the rent rise as you renovate and spend the money, and then you got to hope the building appreciates to an extent greater than the capital that you raised, greater than the capital that you raised for the CapEx or the renovations, and then produces a return beyond that. And what we're finding today is that in the inflationary environment, with interest rates going up, insurance going up, and taxes going up, with renovation costs being material, supplies being delayed, labor being hard to find that unfortunately. Stop penciling. Why? Because when your expenses go up it and your interest rates go up, it draws down on your valuations. And so even though you're working real hard to improve the property in the long term, I don't know.
Patrick Grimes (00:13:16) - So what's going to happen. So. The strategy right now is not to pull out the crystal ball that we had of yesteryear and try and hope for three, five and seven years down the line. Me as an analyst, I know that in 2009 and ten, not me, but other real estate investors that made it very wealthy. Were those individuals at the assets transferred to. During those times, they transferred away from the speculators, the gamblers like me back then, and they transferred to the people that made intelligent, articulated acquisitions at the right time. And so to really position yourself moving forward. You need to take off your old hat. Put on a brand new hat. Because the strategy to win in downturns, to find the upside of downturns isn't in pulling out your crystal ball and future for future speculation, it's in buying right and not hoping on long term value add. So what I mean by that is there is a ton of deal flow right now. Not like in three years or five years ago.
Patrick Grimes (00:14:21) - There's a ton of deal flow right now where we know on the buy that we're getting a great deal and we know very clearly going in today what that deal is, and we can move in cash to purchase it from a distressed operator, not a distressed asset, necessarily mean these are performing properties. We just bought a property at a ten cap, right? I mean, it's pushing out 10% cash flow a year if you buy it all in cash, which we did. That's what a ten cap means. It's amazing. I mean, it's performing property but it's distressed operators, individuals that that didn't plan for interest rates rising, didn't plan for inflation, didn't have reserves on the sideline to deal with their tenants not paying during Covid. And when the rental assistance checks stopped coming in, that and the eviction ban lifted, the evictions got backed up. They didn't plan for not having income, right? Maybe they had a natural disaster and they didn't have replacement costs insurance or revenue insurance to pay. So there's a bunch of reasons why right now, today there's a ton of distressed operators, distressed owners, not distressed assets.
Patrick Grimes (00:15:36) - Right. Needing to exit quickly. They need a source of relief. And so we can be that on the buy. And that's that's what we're doing. There's there's a case study of four properties that were done prior to us launching the Recessionary Acquisitions Fund. That set the stage for this is exactly the strategy we're going to rinse and repeat does. And within the recessionary acquisitions where we just did our first asset, we did it all cash by we we raised the capital immediately. We closed within 12 days. Incredible deal right off the bat. And what we're going to do is we're going to immediately refi out half our capital. So we're going to do 50% loan to value. That's that low leverage strategy I was telling you about. We're going to buy a second asset within the fund. So we're not going to distribute refinances and sell again. You got to take off your hat, put on a new one, new thinking cap today. Because normally one asset, you hold it, you cash flow you refi, you get that refi as an investor, when it sells, you get the proceeds from sale.
Patrick Grimes (00:16:38) - Not the case today. Why? Because we're not going to hold. We're going to buy it. We're going to refi, but we're going to keep that in the fund. And we're going to buy a second asset within the fund. And then we're going to take the first asset and we're going to 1031 exchange it into a third asset within the fund. We're going to do this very quickly. We're already working on the refi. We're already lining up the second and the third acquisitions right now. Then with those two we're going to create four and then four becomes eight. We're going to do this at 6 to 12 month paces between property to property. And we're going to turn $100,000 investment from an accredited investor, instead of putting it into one asset and holding it for 3 to 5 or 5 to 7 years, and missing this entire buying window this exciting time, right now, you can invest $100,000, and we can put it to work in a dozen properties in the next 3 to 5 years. And so by doing that.
Patrick Grimes (00:17:29) - Each time we make, we make a buy. We know the return. We're not hoping. And then we make one more step return. Make the return on the buy. And we make one more step return and one more step return. Instead of looking at that crystal ball, we just keep stepping forward to raise the returns.
Sam Wilson (00:17:46) - I've got several questions on this front. One of them goes back to the we'll start kind of the end and work our way back to the beginning. You said what you'll do is you'll buy the asset in cash, and then you'll refinance that at a 50% loan to value. And then you mentioned you're going to 1031 that into a second property. What's the point in refinancing if you're going to sell it in 1031? Into another property.
Patrick Grimes (00:18:11) - So we can refinance very quickly. It's all about velocity of capital and diversification. Right. So we can refinance very because we know we're we're getting a great by the minute we we buy it, we can pull out half our capital and we need to close quickly.
Patrick Grimes (00:18:26) - It's a little bit like Whac-a-mole on these deals. We do a lot of work up front, but the minute we do all the we do all the work front loader to make sure it's a good deal. But the minute our due diligence funds become hard, we know that it's an asset we get to close on and even in this asset. But from the 12 days that it took us to close, from the time that we we finished due diligence, the owner was already starting to get antsy because he already, he felt he left $1.3 million on the table. We believe he left 3 to $4 million on the table. So we have to move very quickly on these these assets in order to get them across the finish line. So we're going to close in cash the best basis we can pull out the capital quickly traded forward. And then we'll move to take the base asset the equity and the base asset after it three, 456 months. And then we'll trade it into the third asset.
Sam Wilson (00:19:16) - Got it.
Sam Wilson (00:19:17) - Man.
Sam Wilson (00:19:17) - That's an advanced strategy. There's a few other questions on that. Just in the in the operations of this fund. So these operators and again your clarification I appreciate which was that it's a distressed operator not a distressed deal. You know maybe they didn't have insurance. You know they've got hit with insurance premium increases. They've like you said they didn't have rate caps in place. Interest rates are killing them. All these different things that can happen to a distressed operator. It seems like you would incur those same. Increase in prices that they would maybe, maybe not the interest rate side because. Actually, if you're refinancing it, yes, maybe at a lower, lower interest rate. But all those still costs are going to be fixed and then passed on to you. How are you making this deal? Better than maybe what they are.
Patrick Grimes (00:20:02) - Well, let me give you an example. Okay. This first asset that we just bought in the fund. All right. It was the software developer that owned it living in the Bay, San Francisco Bay area.
Patrick Grimes (00:20:11) - All right. He inherited it from his father. And he spent 2 to 3 years virtually ignoring it. Right. And during this time, he he had the wrong kind of debt. Right. So we saw his interest rates go wild. He saw the cash flow go all over the place. He doesn't know how to operate or he's inexperienced. He's disinterested because he's interested in something else. In the meantime, he had tenants move out and even with tenants moving out, which it got down to 60% occupancy, which he had brokers calling, and we spoke to the brokers, but he was disinterested in putting in the work to actually lease it up. During this time, this thing dropped to six. This great property, great performing asset. And when we bought it with the cash price, we bought it. It was cash flowing at 10% a ten cap. So it's a performing asset. Nobody. It's really hard to buy properties regardless of how occupied it is, which at the end of the day when we bought it, it's cash flow.
Patrick Grimes (00:21:11) - There's only upside from there, right as you lease it up as you occupy it. Right. And we were there. He had two other offers and they were all higher prices, but they weren't cash buys. And we're going to move fast enough for them. Right. And so that's an example of how we find these pockets of deals in these times. And these people are disinterested and just throw their hands in there and they just want out quickly.
Sam Wilson (00:21:33) - I think that's that's absolutely brilliant. I love that the last question. Unfortunately, we're out of time here today. And if you're listening to this and want to get a hold of Patrick, he's going to give his contact info here at the end. This strategy I think, is brilliant, not something we've heard a lot about, if any, taking it really at the at the angle you guys are right now here on the show. We interview a lot of people here. So this is this is really, really cool. I love what you guys are doing here.
Sam Wilson (00:21:58) - So tell me this. I mean, it seems like people would be just lined up for these deals. Buyers would be all over these these opportunities you guys are finding how are you finding such great deals.
Patrick Grimes (00:22:09) - So that's one of the really exciting parts is so and normally again you have to take your old thinking cap off. You've got to put on your new recessionary thinking cap. Okay. It's really tough to do deals right now as we did 3 to 5, 5 to 10 years ago, because the brokers have been whispering prices to these owners that are dramatically higher, 20, 50% higher than what these properties are worth now. And the brokers are now in this spot where they're trying to hang on to the seller and but they're trying to get the price down, but they've already set the stage at a losing battle to make this deal come through. So while we love brokers and we have a lot of great relationships with brokers, pretty much most of all of our assets and all of our engagement with the deals starts with the owner.
Patrick Grimes (00:22:58) - And so we have this really cool. And we talk we explain it a little bit on on our website. I, we have this really cool acquisition engine which uses intelligence software. We have a huge team of people to funnel through and identify all the highest likelihood distressed assets. We've got a bunch of really cool filters that help us identify which ones, outreach teams that reach out to them, and then we reach the owner directly. Now, sometimes we end up talking to a broker, but we reach the owner directly and have those conversations, and we make sure that they're the right kind of buyer for us that are interested in moving quickly. There's some component of distress to them that allow them to exit at a great price. And they're not they don't have a broker that's going to mass market this so that we can move very quickly and lock it up, because agility is the key to the game. Buy as much as you can as quickly as you can and trade to the next assets. And during this very short, narrow window of call it a year and a half, two years where we see a trillion and a half dollars in debt coming due in commercial real estate, where we can snatch up as much as we can during this time.
Sam Wilson (00:24:09) - I love it, Patrick. If our listeners want to get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?
Patrick Grimes (00:24:15) - So if you want to learn more about the recessionary acquisition fund, head over to Passive Investing Mastery. Passive Investing Mastery. We've got the Recessionary Acquisitions Fund and the Recessionary debt fund. Really high cash flow play next to it that we're launching soon. And if you're interested in having a chat, set up a call with me. You can go to invest on Main Street and my calendar is there. You can set up a meeting. I'm happy to talk to you wherever you're at. One of the things that I love about what I do is I have plenty of time to, you know, talk to, invest when I make the time. That's what I love to do. And regardless of where you're at, I'm happy to get your point in the right direction. We do only allow $100,000 minimums with accredited investors only into our deals. But I know other operators that that that can't be out here soliciting and talking about their investments.
Patrick Grimes (00:25:05) - I can point you to that work with non-accredited investors too. And I also have I mean, I have a best selling book. Would you like me to offer a copy of that out.
Sam Wilson (00:25:14) - Please?
Patrick Grimes (00:25:15) - Yeah. Persistence, pivots and game changers turning challenges and opportunities. I think I have a copy of it right. It is just such a cool book. I did it with, in fact, an actual rockstar. I co-authored it with a couple other people. Phil Collins, lead guitarist of Def Leppard, was one of them. It just an actual I mean, it was so cool. There was NFL, NBA players, entrepreneurs, handful of us put together a book and I tell my whole story. The ebbs and flows, the the ruin, the rebuild, the pivots, all of it. And until we landed here in Hawaii and where I'm at now. So I tell the whole story, I'd be happy to. I send out a signed hard copy, just as a give back to others that were hard working professionals that are looking for another option, right, to accelerate retirement.
Patrick Grimes (00:26:06) - And so if it helps to inspire your journey along, invest on Main Street slash book. That's the secret link. That's it's invest on Main Street comic book. If you use the promo code how to scale, then we know you're not somebody random. And then I legitimately offered it because we don't we don't send it to anybody. That just fills out the form. But but I do sign them, I sign them and. And we should we ship off a sign hard copy and and if you want to schedule a meeting to chat, I'd love to talk to you and appreciate all your time today.
Sam Wilson (00:26:40) - Awesome, Patrick, thank you so much for your time. This was awesome. You shared a wealth of knowledge and experience here with our listeners, as well as some awesome giveaways that book will share. Of course, all of the links there in the show notes that you've shared with us today, and I certainly appreciate your time. Thank you again for coming on.
Patrick Grimes (00:26:56) - Absolutely. Thank you.
Intro (00:26:57) - Sam.
Sam Wilson (00:26:58) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast.
Sam Wilson (00:27:01) - If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new.
Sam Wilson (00:27:16) - Listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.
