Today’s guest is Adam Zach.
Adam retired from the Civil Engineering profession at age 32 through real estate investing. He is a family man with a business, not a businessman with a family.
Show summary:
In this podcast episode, host Sam interviews retired civil engineer Adam Zack, who achieved financial independence through real estate investing. Adam shares his strategy of buying rental properties in up-and-coming markets and emphasizes the benefits of being a tenant buyer. He discusses his approach to underwriting potential buyers based on their credit score and background, and explains how he pairs investors with properties that meet their desired return criteria. They also discuss the challenges of securing loans and verifying down payments, as well as the potential market size for this investment strategy. Adam reveals their recent launch of a fund to streamline their real estate purchases.
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Intro [00:00:00]
The Marshmallow Test [00:01:49]
Formulating the Plan and Executing [00:03:12]
Finding the Person First, Property Second [00:06:53]
The option to buy structure [00:08:25]
Complications and sourcing funds [00:09:17]
Market potential and disqualifying criteria [00:10:51]
The challenges of real estate transactions [00:18:05]
Launching a real estate fund [00:20:26]
Current challenges in the real estate market [00:21:15]
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Connect with Adam:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-zach-pe-0000303b/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ChessChief
Connect with Sam:
I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/
Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com
SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f
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Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below:
Adam Zach (00:00:00) - As a tenant buyer, it's actually great to buy an up and coming markets that could drop because you just have the option but not the obligation to buy. And so at the same time, that's why we're setting this up, not so much as like, hey, test drive it, it's, hey, this is your house. And if something were to go wrong, we give them three years, they get an option to extend for a year. Plus we give them the option of like, Hey, if something really goes wrong, we'll just sell the home. And if there's whatever equity is generally left, you can take part of your deposit back. Just like if you bought a house now and sold it six months later, you're going to lose money just 6% to agent fees, whatever it is. And so we're trying to set it up as much for success across the board. Welcome to the How to Scale commercial real Estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.
Sam Wilson (00:00:50) - Adam. Zack is retired from the civil engineering profession at the age of 32. He did that through real estate investing, as he claims. He is a family man with a business, not a business man with a family. Adam, welcome to the show.
Adam Zach (00:01:03) - Thank you, Sam. Good to be here.
Sam Wilson (00:01:05) - Absolutely. The pleasure is mine. Adam There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?
Adam Zach (00:01:14) - Little town of Dickinson, North Dakota, population 17,000, went to civil engineering school. One of six found my sweetheart in college. We got married. We now have three kids. Five, three and one. Got into real estate just as I graduated engineering and realized that the marshmallow test was the key to success, that if I can just wait and not eat that one marshmallow today, I can have two later.
Sam Wilson (00:01:40) - Fantastic. I would venture to say that many of our listeners have no idea what you're talking about.
Sam Wilson (00:01:46) - I do know what you're talking about. Tell us about the marshmallow test.
Adam Zach (00:01:49) - So they did this experiment. It was kind of cruel with kids, but like it was a great indicator of success in life or being able to get what you want because success has a funny success in my mind, is just getting from point A to point B if you want to get there, point A to point B could be I could lose £1, £10, I could get whatever I want. So in general, they set these kids in a room and they said, Hey, you can have this one marshmallow now and you can just eat it or you can go play with those toys. And if you wait, I think it was like 30 minutes, I'll give you two marshmallows later. And the kids that were able to be like, You know what, I'm going for the two marshmallows. Like, I'm going to do it. Like these kids that were, you know, less than ten years old that they were able to have some sort of self-control.
Adam Zach (00:02:27) - They tracked them over a period of like 30 or 40 years and found out that they were much happier and successful in their careers.
Sam Wilson (00:02:33) - Right? Right. Yeah, absolutely. So you graduate engineering school and then you get into real estate. One thing I know because I am not an engineer, I need engineers in my life because you exhibit this trait, which is that you will research, research or research plan and then execute. And having had and currently have friends who are engineers getting to the point where they're like, okay, now we're ready to do it takes a considerably long amount of time. It sounds like you were able to formulate the plan and execute, which a lot of people struggle with in a in a relatively short period of time. How did you do that, especially coming directly out of college?
Adam Zach (00:03:12) - The tipping point was asymmetric reward to risk at a 2 to 1 ratio. So Daniel Kahneman does this great test, like you flip a coin. It's heads. I'll give you 50 bucks. If it's tails, you give me 50 bucks.
Adam Zach (00:03:25) - Most people won't do it. Like I don't want 5050 because they fear losing two times as much as they gain winning. So the tipping point is, I'm going to flip a coin. You win $100 or you lose 50, then that's like when the tipping point is like, Oh yeah, I'll do that. Right? Like, sure, if I do it enough time, if I'm going to do that enough time, I'm going to win. Right? But if it's like it's just one time, some people like you have to get to that comfort zone. So for me, it was, okay, what's the upside and is it more than a 1 to 1 ratio? Because otherwise my brain cannot compute, right? It's like, here's the reward. I'm betting a dollar. I could lose a dollar. Like I'm just playing blackjack and it's like there's too many and there's so many variables that I can't control. So in my mind it was, how do I make it a 2 to 1? Because I have to get beyond that first for my own reptile brain.
Adam Zach (00:04:12) - And once I do that, I'm like, Let's just do this enough and eventually I'm gonna win, right?
Sam Wilson (00:04:18) - Oh, that's really cool. Let's dig into that. And I love My mind immediately actually went to Blackjack. You said that. I'm like, Yeah, I think, you know, I'm not mistaken that the casino's edge in the game of blackjack, it's only like 3/10 of a percent. It's not 1%. Maybe it's a half a percent. Whatever it is, it's. It's really small. So, I mean, the casino does have the edge, whatever that is. 50 point call it, 50.5% to your 49.5. And the game still gets played. But you found a way to have that return of 2 to 1 on the okay, I win, I make 100, I lose, I lose 50. What was it?
Adam Zach (00:04:57) - So for that it was specifically, how can I. Heads. I win, tails I break even. Right? And it was okay, if I win, it's going to be this.
Adam Zach (00:05:07) - And if I don't, it's like, okay, over the long term, I'm going to generally not lose money. It's not I have to get 8%. It's not that I have to beat the S&P. It's just like, okay, over a period of five years, if I do this, the worst thing that's going to happen is I got a $10,000 education that I should have put. I could have put my money in at 8% and maybe would have grown to $12,000, which is like, you know, do. But if I win, you know, that now turns into a rental that I get a block that then fuels everything else. And so it was looking at that ratio of like, okay, if I do this right in general, and of course you can always go, you know, it could be worse, right? I could have not had insurance and the whole house could have fall down. But it's like, okay, give give some sort of like 95 degree level of confidence, right? So like that's where it gets a little bit tricky.
Adam Zach (00:05:54) - But like that's how my engineer brain was like, okay, well, the worst of the worst of the worst is like, as long as I have insurance and as long as something else, like in general, if you hold real estate long enough, like it generally works. So like for my first deal, it was like, just try not to lose money and if I happen to be right, I'm going to probably learn something and win.
Sam Wilson (00:06:11) - Got it. I love that. So you began in Single Family, is that right?
Adam Zach (00:06:16) - That's right. And that's what I grew most of the portfolio. It's crazy. It just a single base hit at a time, right? That was it. Just one one after another through 50 homes.
Sam Wilson (00:06:25) - 50 homes. You have 50 rental properties currently, correct?
Adam Zach (00:06:29) - In 13 different states.
Sam Wilson (00:06:31) - Wow. Okay. 50 rental. That's that. That's a twist. I did not expect 50 rental properties, 13 different states. What was the strategy in getting outside of You're in North Dakota, right? You got it right.
Sam Wilson (00:06:49) - What was the strategy or the intention behind, hey, we're going to we're going to go outside of North Dakota.
Adam Zach (00:06:53) - So besides just taking the action, getting in the game, we went through like pivot one, pivot two, pivot three of like, oh, this business model is better. Okay, now this one's better. Okay? It's fixing flips. No, it's the burn. No, it's wholesaling. No, it's commercial. No. And it was like, okay, in general, we just like, okay, what do you not like about what you're currently doing? Solve that problem? And so what we currently ended up with with, okay, let's find the person first and the property second, which means we find someone who 1 to 3 years away from a mortgage, they apply to us. We preapproved them like a bank. We go buy the home and sell it to them on a rent with an option to buy. So we don't find any properties. We don't look at properties, We still get the inspection and still get the appraisal.
Adam Zach (00:07:30) - But now we find the people, the people go shopping with an agent and then we buy the home for them.
Sam Wilson (00:07:36) - So I'm sorry, I'm a slow learner. Rewind that strategy again.
Adam Zach (00:07:42) - So. So this scenario, Adam cannot get into a house because I recently left my civil engineering job and on paper I make negative money. So the bank says, Hey, turns out your debt to income ratio is out of whack. Like, I can't buy you an owner occupied home, but you can go get a loan all day, right? So I can buy a non owner occupied. But if I want a primary residence, the bank does not like Adam in my current position. Wealthy, but debt to income doesn't work. So I go, Hey Sam, if I put 20% down on a new build here in Fargo, so a $400,000 house, would you go get a loan for 320,000? You don't put any money up. Whatever your whatever your pity is, I'll pay you that plus $500 a month.
Adam Zach (00:08:25) - Just give me the option to buy it back at $430,000 any time in the next 18 months. And you'd say, well, what's your credit score? What's your background? What's like? And so then we we basically underwrite people like I'm a registered loan originator. I'm also an investor. And so we underwrite people to that criteria. I'm like, okay, you're risky, you're 20% down, you're not risky, you're 5% down. And then we're basically pairing of what we want from a return, just almost like we're privatizing the mortgage industry. But instead of doing a first position loan, Sam, as the investor taking title, you get to depreciate it. It's a rent with an option to buy. So it's more favorable to you as the investor when you're buying the home, selling it on an option to buy because the option fee doesn't get taxed right away. It's not like deferred capital gains. You can still 1031 into something. And so that's the structure that really hit the turbo button for us.
Sam Wilson (00:09:16) - Wow.
Sam Wilson (00:09:17) - I mean, forgive me, but that sounds that sounds complicated because you got to write borrower, you got to find the right property. You've got to find the right bank. Let's assume I'm the lender. I'm the I'm the one in this case putting up the $320,000 loan. Does it get complicated? If you are the lease option tenant, I'll call it that. Does it get complicated with you bringing the down payment and me securing the loan in the bank comes to me and says, Hey, Sam, where'd that 80 grand come from?
Adam Zach (00:09:51) - If you're putting it in your own personal name, 100%, because they got to source all the funds, right? If you're getting a commercial loan or typically a DSR, they they I guess sometimes it's, hey, I need a show proof of funds, but I'm putting my 80 grand towards the title company you're bringing. If you have let's say we're doing ten and ten, then you would send it to the title company. So in theory you just have to show the proof of funds.
Adam Zach (00:10:18) - But the title company is the one receiving all the funds, so they're receiving my non-refundable 80 grand of option fee. And then the day and the day you close the take title, sign the mortgage, do the personal guarantee, whatever it is, we're executing the lease with the option to buy. So you you actually don't typically we don't touch the keys. They just hand the keys over.
Sam Wilson (00:10:35) - Sure. Right. Yeah. Ideally. Ideally, that's the that's the strategy. That's really, really intriguing. How many potential, um, people are there that fit this criteria such that you can make a scalable business out of it?
Adam Zach (00:10:51) - So roughly 1 in 10 Americans get denied a mortgage, which is, which is excess of 2 million people every year. There is 140,000 people searching rent to own into Google every month. Wow. And so all we did was tapped into that market disqualify the individuals that can only put 1% down because like there's different like there's larger companies divvy homes, Home Partners of America, this is their entire business model, but they don't offer it up to other investors.
Adam Zach (00:11:23) - They say they say test drive the home, put 1% down, rent it with the option to buy. And that's that's also a great scalable market. But they only pick great properties and great locations. And for us, since we're tenant led, we just said, Oh, you're picking a property and nowhere in North Dakota you're probably going to need 20 to 30% down because I don't want to come to that property. I don't want this property back, right? And so all it is, is just like a balanced, almost like risk to reward of like, okay, if they default, if Adam defaults, I'm keeping his 80 grand and then I'm selling the property, I have to evict him. It's not a foreclosure because it's a lease with an option to buy. So instead of being a six month foreclosure, it's a 30 to 45 day eviction. And it's just kind of helps protect that. And then the icing on the cake is if you do a rent with an option to buy, there's rent guarantee insurance that you can apply that I didn't even know existed.
Adam Zach (00:12:15) - The guarantors leap easy and then Single key, which is in Canada coming to the United States, you can literally apply coverage like the banks do with private mortgage insurance on renters. And so if they default, you keep their option money. You have this insurance policy which is basically like you're, Oh shit, something went wrong because they're potentially higher risk because they don't fit the bank. And so we've just been layering that on to now try to find this balance of what does it look like, What is it, what is an investor want from a return? How much skin do they want in the game from the tenant buyer? And it's like almost going into underwriting like 101. It's just like, okay, well, what does Sam want? Does he want cash flow? Does he want appreciation? Does he want a nice home? Does he want a nice location? Okay. Does one all those. Okay then based on that, what's the demand for people in Indianapolis that would want Sam to buy him a home? And then we just play matchmaker?
Sam Wilson (00:13:02) - Interesting.
Sam Wilson (00:13:03) - Okay, so let's just run the numbers here. You've got a house. This is hypothetical, but you got a house for 400 grand. They put you know, again, it's you and me doing this deal. Adam puts 80 grand down as the down payment. Is there an option? Fee in addition to that?
Adam Zach (00:13:20) - No. So I'm interchanging it. It's technically an option fee, but generally no. Like security deposit. Right? It's the option fee, which you can call it a down payment, but it's technically an option fee in an option agreement.
Sam Wilson (00:13:33) - Right. So, okay, that's your you're calling the 80 grand the option fee. Totally. Fine. Understood. And I'm sure there's some reasons legally for that which we won't get into the nuances of. I'm sure our listeners can just make their own conclusions from that. And then you say, all right, you know, congratulations, your $400,000 home is going to cost you whatever it is. I don't know. What would that be, $2,200 a month, maybe 2400 bucks a month in today's rates.
Sam Wilson (00:14:00) - Plus you'll be 500 bucks a month on top. So the investor collects the six grand a year. And then if you add them exercise in the next 18 months, you'll owe me an extra 30 grand on top of that. But the only way they're going to exercise is if they are able to then in 18 months go out and get a refinance.
Adam Zach (00:14:20) - You got it.
Sam Wilson (00:14:23) - What are the statistics around the people that are able to substantially turn around their lives in such a way that they actually get that refi done?
Adam Zach (00:14:29) - Terrible. Which is why. Three things. Number one, we created a podcast dedicated to those 1 in 10 people denied a bank loan because in general, people do this all the time. Hey, give me ten grand, move in. You can get financing in a year, right? Yeah, sure. I can take the money, rinse and repeat, and it's like the greatest ROI you'll ever get, right? Ten grand plus rent and do that every year. It's like just juicing the ROI.
Adam Zach (00:14:54) - So it's like number one, stop it. Okay, then number two, becoming a registered mortgage loan originator. I'm still not a great loan originator, but understanding. Okay, what does it actually take to become qualified with a bank? And then number three, setting them up for success so that they can do it. So whether it's a credit repair, whether it's reporting the rent credits, whether they're being a co-borrower on something, it's seeing them through. And so at the time of this, we have like we have an 80% buyback rate, which is staggeringly higher than like the national average of what don't know if there is like an authority, but I've heard like 5 or 10%. But it's usually because you're only putting 1 or 2% down because all buy a home right now in Florida with 1% down. If I can lock in a price because I'm playing the appreciation game, I would love to do that as what I call a tenant buyer. As an investor, I don't want to do that because I want the upside without the downside protection.
Adam Zach (00:15:44) - So like as a tenant buyer, it's actually great to buy an up and coming markets that could drop because you just have the option but not the obligation to buy. And so at the same time, that's why we're setting this up. Not so much is like, hey, test drive it, it's Hey, this is your house. And if something were to go wrong, we give them three years. They get an option to extend for a year. Plus we give them the option of like, Hey, if something really goes wrong, we'll just sell the home. And if there's whatever equity is generally left, you can take part of your deposit back. Just like if you bought a house now and sold it six months later, you're going to lose money just 6% to agent fees, whatever it is. And so we're trying to set it up as much for success across the board, right?
Sam Wilson (00:16:23) - I mean, and again, 80 grand is no small amount of money. And so for the person that has 80 grand in savings to plunk down on a $400,000 house, um, you know, you'd hope they could figure it out.
Sam Wilson (00:16:36) - But it sounds like you're doing you're taking a different approach to this business because, yes, there are the people in the in the capacity to wash, rinse, repeat and really juicy returns. But it doesn't really do anything for the people that live there. It doesn't do anything other than really just pad your pocketbook. I'm not going to say it's wrong, but I'm going to say that, you know, maybe there's better ways of doing stuff. It sounds like you're really making sure. And you said 80% of your buyers end up exercising. That's really, really strong, right?
Adam Zach (00:17:05) - Right now it's really strong. I, I see some ways that that might get generally lower, but as of the recording of this, it's 80%.
Sam Wilson (00:17:12) - That's awesome. And that's cool. I mean, and that's good. That's good for two people. It's good for the tenant buyer and it's also good for the investor. I mean, because then they collect their their upside and then the tenant buyer, of course, ends up with the with the house.
Sam Wilson (00:17:27) - But you're going through the steps that probably a lot of landlords, business owners aren't going to go through in order to make sure that people then exercise. I think I've only done. Oh, no, I've done three. Three deals like this. But I too, like you like I went to a lot of effort to see to it that they got these across the finish line. How do you handle that side of things? I mean, you said you're a family man with a business, not a business man with the family. 50 of these houses, you've got investors, you've got properties, you've got builders, you've got all of these. There's a lot of moving parts there. How do you manage all that?
Adam Zach (00:18:05) - So luckily, I have an awesome business partner and a team. And so we've found kind of our own skill sets where we have someone in call it tenant relations, and I'm more in sales and marketing playing with Google ads and Facebook ads and trying to make sure that our website explains things to the tenant buyer is putting out content, trying to help them.
Adam Zach (00:18:21) - And so once once you get through the closing, it's it's relatively more easy because they have a monthly payment and they're just trying to get mortgage ready like that, but like getting to the finish line, like just in general, buying a house is complicated. Okay. Add in the fact that our agents are showing someone that we're not even there and we're, you know, potentially assigning this to an investor and they're understanding like, okay, what does this actually mean? And if one person, whether it's the insurance, the title company, the buyer, the seller, the agent, us, the tenant buyer, like if someone falls through, it's like, okay, then the whole thing comes down just like in any other normal transaction. So it's like, okay, being the transaction coordinator and holding everyone's hands and making sure that we have the contracts to hold everyone to it, getting earnest money from either investors or the tenant buyers to make sure that they have skin in the game just to make sure things don't fall through the crack.
Adam Zach (00:19:11) - And then if worst case comes. To it. We just buy it all cash and just save the deal if something were to fall out. So we have a little bit of options because we don't want to have a bad reputation out there of like, Hey, we can't close on homes. But in general, you know, that's the piece. And then it's like, okay, normally what people need to work on is their credit or it's paying down debt. Rare is the time where they're just waiting for two years to get like their tax returns. But, you know, that does happen. And so it's okay. How do we increase the likelihood of them buying it back, which, you know, wasn't our primary focus. Our number one was like, okay, how do we use this to quit our day job? I'll be honest, Like it wasn't very altruistic to start off. I was like, How do I make more money? And it was like, Oh, it turns out Chris Krohn on YouTube is like, Oh, I'm preaching about least options.
Adam Zach (00:19:52) - And then when he patented Joe McCullen, it took these courses and I was trying to sandwich lease options, but it was really hard to find motivated sellers. But why don't I just find a motivated. You know, home shopper. And so I found that. So we're not buying it great, but we're selling it well. You know, if you can buy it at a discount plus sell it on a lease option, well then you got both. We just found a model where we're purchasing properties right now off the MLS and cash flowing them all day, every day.
Sam Wilson (00:20:18) - Wow, that's wild. I love it. I love it. Now, you've launched a fund here recently. What? Tell us about that.
Adam Zach (00:20:26) - So we kept trying to do these one off deals, right? Like, we'll find the person, we'll do all this. And we said, All right, let's just get two of us together. We'll put a bunch of money in there, We'll look at the bank and the bank's like, Oh yeah, cool.
Adam Zach (00:20:35) - You guys are good for like $5 million. Okay, let's just go buy. So any now we know that the next 30 homes we're just gonna buy like, no questions asked. The banks on board. We got the investors, we already got all the capital. So we just did a, you know, a pretty standard fund, put that together, got some limited partners in there. And then we're going to see how that works by 20 to 30 homes, see what the returns are, see what the splits are, and then just either do that every year or keep it as an ongoing, ongoing thing where we just keep buying more properties with the fund and keep distributing it. But right now it has a sunset of, hey, we're just going to buy 20 homes and then we're going to go do it again, Right?
Sam Wilson (00:21:08) - That's that's really, really cool. What are some bottlenecks or complications in your business right now that you presently have not solved.
Adam Zach (00:21:15) - Interest rates doubling over a year? And so in general, last year it was hotter than a pistol where everybody wanted to go through.
Adam Zach (00:21:24) - And it turns out the demand is still here. But just like everyone in 2023, when interest rates are at 7% every. So we have this list of I'm going to call it pre-approved home shoppers that are like 50 to 100 people that are just like, well, I'm not sure if I want to do it right. And there's but that's America in general, right? Low inventory. Nobody wants to give up their 3% rate like, but everyone's pre-approved. They could get a home and everyone's like, well, I don't want to overpay. It's still generally like a seller's market from what we're seeing in different places, even though the highs, you know, have come down. But like it's still like homes are still going like 1 to 3 days. So in general, it's like everything got more expensive. Well, when that happens, things generally slow down in general. But what we've seen is we've got this huge demand built up, but not as many contractual offers. So the top of the funnel from us is still rocking where we get 1000 to 2000 people every week to our website.
Adam Zach (00:22:13) - We get, you know, ten people applying with us and, you know, every week. So we got like 2 or 3 new home shoppers every week. And it's just a matter of, okay, do they want to move forward with this or not? And then we'll get people that came came to us from last year like, Hey, can I still get that? Uh, nope. That's not it's not it's not the same, you know, 4.5% interest rate.
Sam Wilson (00:22:32) - No, no, it's not. And that's. Yeah, man. Very interesting. Adam, I've really enjoyed having you on the show today. I love what you guys are doing. The strategy, I understand lease options and lease to own very, very well, but I've never seen it employed quite the way that you're doing it. So this is very, very fascinating love. I love what you're doing and I also love the way you are getting people into homes and helping them get across that finish line and actually make it to homeownership in the end.
Sam Wilson (00:23:02) - I think that's that's a really cool, unique strategy that you're employing there. If our listeners want to get in touch with you or learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?
Adam Zach (00:23:11) - If they want to learn more about me, you could just follow me on Facebook. If you just search Adam Zach Or if they want to learn more about this strategy, it's home equity partner slash investors home.
Sam Wilson (00:23:21) - Equity partner.com/investors and Adam, I butchered your last name there in the beginning.
Adam Zach (00:23:26) - It's just very German. It's like Baquba with a Z.
Sam Wilson (00:23:30) - With a Z. Yeah. And I'd definitely made it. Adam. Zach. So, Adam. Zach Got it. Adam Forgive me for that. I've enjoyed having you on the show today. Thank you so much for coming on and have a great rest of your day.
Adam Zach (00:23:41) - This is a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thanks for the great questions.
Sam Wilson (00:23:44) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen.
Sam Wilson (00:23:57) - If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.
