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This week, guest-host Kristen Meinzer talks to Joshua Jay, a world-class magician, storyteller, and author of multiple books about the history and craft of magic. In the interview, Joshua explains how he’s able to conceive of, design, and execute original tricks. He also talks about the role of storytelling in his work, and he explains how certain narrative structures can make for better performances. After the interview, Kristen and co-host June Thomas talk about Joshua’s high standards for his work and why they’re sometimes reluctant to “kill their darlings.” In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Joshua describes different varieties of magic. He also talks about the cliche ways magicians are often portrayed in movies. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host June Thomas talks to Courtney Gilbert, curator of the Sun Valley Museum of Art in Ketchum, Idaho. In the interview, Courtney digs into the process of curating a “non-collecting” museum, which means they start from scratch with each exhibition, and they don’t keep a large inventory of pieces. She also explains how she comes up with ideas for exhibitions, what a good exhibition should do, and how she serves her specific community. After the interview, June and co-host Isaac Butler talk about the importance of creating guidelines and best-practices for their work. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Courtney discusses her education and career journey. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
For this week’s episode of Working Overtime, the hosts Ronald Young Jr. and June Thomas, take out their microscopes and examine what gives them purpose and where it comes from. For Ronald, finding creative independence led him to self-publish his own podcast, despite the financial risks, while June moved across the pond to write her book. With any creative pursuits it's important to know why we’re doing the thing we’re doing so we can understand our goals and what sacrifices we might have to make to achieve them. Do you have questions or advice of your own about the creative process? Reach out at (304) 933-9675 or email us at working@slate.com. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Cameron Drews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host Ronald Young Jr. talks to Bekah Brunstetter, a TV writer and playwright whose most recent project is the new Broadway musical version of The Notebook. In the interview, Bekah discusses her early career journey, when she was juggling a corporate job with her playwriting passion. She also talks about breaking into TV writing and working on the hit drama This is Us. And finally, she digs into her work on The Notebook and explains what it was like to adapt the classic rom-com. After the interview, Ronald and co-host June Thomas talk about receiving feedback, establishing routines, and choosing the correct creative tools for your project. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Bekah shares the plot of the first play she ever wrote. Then she and Ronald talk about their experiences growing up in religious households and the impact it had on their cultural diets. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host Isaac Butler talks to Howard Fine, an acting teacher and coach who instructs both beginners and accomplished movie stars. In the interview, Howard explains why he chose to teach and coach, instead of act. Then he discusses the common problems that his students and clients face, and he explains how actors can protect their mental health, even when they need to go to challenging emotional places. After the interview, Isaac and co-host Ronald Young Jr. discuss the emotional toll that acting can take on performers, and Isaac shares a personal story about his experience as a young actor. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Howard talks about a role he helped Brad Pitt with and how his approach to Pitt’s character differed from the director’s. He also explains how he tailors his coaching to specific actors. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
For this week’s episode of Working Overtime, the hosts Ronald Young Jr. and June Thomas talk money, finances, and getting paid as a freelancer in a tough economy. Filling out invoices the right way or sending a payment reminder email to an employer can turn into a sticky situation. Ronald and June recount their own frustrating experiences with not getting paid on time and how best to avoid them in the future. Do you have questions or advice of your own about the creative process? Reach out at (304) 933-9675 or email us at working@slate.com. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Cameron Drews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host June Thomas talks to Anna Shechtman, a crossword puzzle creator whose new book is called The Riddles of the Sphinx: Inheriting the Feminist History of the Crossword Puzzle. In the interview, Anna talks about her experience writing crossword puzzles as a teenager and then going on to work with New York Times puzzle maker Will Shortz. She also discusses the subjectivity of “common knowledge” and recalls debates with Shortz about which words and phrases were puzzle-worthy. After the interview, June and co-host Ronald Young Jr. talk more about crosswords and the ever-expanding pool of “common knowledge.” In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Anna shares how much crossword puzzle creators get paid. She also discusses a more sensitive topic: her struggle with anorexia, which coincided with her early interest in crossword puzzles. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host Ronald Young Jr. talks to chef and TV personality Carla Hall. In the interview, Carla talks about leaving her first career as an accountant to explore modeling and then cooking. Then she discusses her pivot to TV, her commitment to being herself on screen, and her latest project Chasing Flavor, which is now available to stream on Max. After the interview, Ronald and co-host Isaac Butler talk about big career pivots, big personalities, and their goal as extroverts to make space for other people In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Carla shares some of her favorite dishes and talks about what it was like to be a model in Paris. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
For this week’s episode of Working Overtime, the hosts June Thomas and Isaac Butler dissect The Yang Slinger author Jeff Pearlman’s recent prickly advice to young professionals. Then, June and Isaac expound on their experiences of dishing out and seeking advice from others. They dig into the right and wrong ways to reach out to people in creative fields and share tips like having a sense of humility, always being specific, and never feeling discouraged from a lack of responses. Do you have questions or advice of your own about the creative process? Reach out at (304) 933-9675 or email us at working@slate.com. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Cameron Drews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host Isaac Butler talks to writer Amitava Kumar, whose latest novel is My Beloved Life. In the interview, Amitava discusses his habit of writing every day—a habit he strongly recommends to his students at Vassar College. Then he shares the process behind his new novel and explains how he drew upon other novels for inspiration. After the interview, Isaac and co-host Ronald Young Jr. talk about daily writing practices, how to establish a writing voice, and much more. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Isaac and Amitava talk about how much they love novels about ordinary life. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host June Thomas talks to writer Adam Sisman about his two biographies of the late spy novelist John le Carré. In the interview, Adam discusses how he managed to land such an exciting project and how he was granted so much access to le Carré, whose real name was David Cornwell. He also talks about his friendly but complicated relationship with le Carre and some surprising findings that almost derailed the whole project. After the interview, June and co-host Isaac Butler share research tips for nonfiction book projects. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Adam explains the importance of in-person interviewing. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
For this week’s episode of Working Overtime, the hosts June Thomas and Isaac Butler respond to some recent listener mail. The first message is from a listener who wonders how to find an assistant to help with their workload and tasks around the home. June and Isaac offer up their own experiences and extoll the importance of making time to supervise someone you hire's work. Later they tackle another response from a listener in the publishing world, who found Isaac’s recent remarks about the pitfalls of publishing to be shortsighted. Do you have a question about creativity? Reach out at (304) 933-9675 or email us at working@slate.com. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Cameron Drews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host Isaac Butler talks to Anthony Davis, a Pulitzer Prize winning opera composer whose work includes the 1986 opera X: The Life and Times of Malcolm X, which was recently revived and produced for the Metropolitan Opera. In the interview, Anthony discusses the inspiration for X and the many genres he drew from to compose its music. He also talks about how to craft a story using music and why it’s important to him to make political art. After the interview, Isaac and co-host June Thomas discuss creative career pivots and the act of finding inspiration from eavesdropping. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Anthony and Isaac talk about their mutual love of science fiction. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host June Thomas talks to children’s book author and illustrator Mika Song, whose work includes the Norma and Belly series about two squirrels with big appetites. In the interview, Mika explains how she collects ideas just by moving around her neighborhood and jotting down notes and drawings. She also talks about her materials, her audience, and her experiences giving book presentations to her young readers. After the interview, June and co-host Isaac Butler discuss how to find inspiration in the everyday. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Mika shares some of her current favorite children’s books. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
For this week’s episode of Working Overtime, hosts June Thomas and Isaac Butler examine their most habitual work routines and think of new ways to improve them. For Isaac, it’s all about switching up your physical workspace, while June likes to audit her creative expenses and get rid of unnecessary subscriptions. Both of them have encountered the anxious feelings of what to do with your day once a big project is complete. They also offer tips for the best interview practices. Do you have a question about creativity? Reach out at (304) 933-9675 or email us at working@slate.com. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Cameron Drews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host Isaac Butler talks to the very in-demand sound designer Johnnie Burn, who has worked on multiple great and sonically rich films like Nope, Poor Things, and the dark historical drama The Zone of Interest, which tells the story of a Nazi commandant and his family who live right outside the walls of Auschwitz. In the interview, Johnnie discusses the crucial role that audio plays in the film and his close attention to historical accuracy. He also discusses the difference between his theatrical mix and a mix he creates for smaller devices, like phones and ipads. After the interview, Isaac and co-host June Thomas discuss the role of sound in their own work. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Johnnie shares a strange discovery he made while tweaking the audio levels for The Zone of Interest. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host June Thomas talks to Jason Isaacs, an actor known for roles like Lucien Malfoy in the Harry Potter film series and Georgy Zhukov in The Death of Stalin. In the interview, Jason discusses the extensive research that went into his portrayal of Cary Grant in the Britbox series Archie, including the work of capturing Grant’s accent, which changed over time. He also talks about his impressively long IMDB page and his life-changing experience working on the play Angels in America. After the interview, June and co-host Ronald Young Jr. talk about accent work and thorough research. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Jason talks more about Cary Grant’s career. Then June asks Jason if he ever borrows clothing and style choices from his characters. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
For this week’s episode of Working Overtime, hosts June Thomas and Isaac Butler expand their world by exploring the senses we often neglect. Isaac recounts a method acting technique of attaching a memory or feeling to a specific scent, or color from our past. June remembers the sight of a dress made by a friend bringing back the memory of childhood Christmas chocolates. They also dive into other sensory-building exercises and take a walk through the streets of Edinburgh. Do you have a question about creativity? Reach out at (304) 933-9675 or email us at working@slate.com. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Cameron Drews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, guest-host Ronald Young Jr. talks to Wendy MacNaughton, an artist whose work can be found in many places, including the bestselling cookbook Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat. In the interview, Wendy discusses her unique artistic style, which stems from her practice of interacting closely with her subjects. She also talks about her educational project DrawTogether and its sister project DrawTogether Strangers, which encourages people to draw portraits of complete strangers in public places around the U.S. After the interview, Ronald and co-host June Thomas discuss the courage it takes to find and pursue a passion. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Wendy shares techniques for talking to strangers. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. You can learn more about Wendy’s work at her website, wendymacnaughton.com, and you can learn more about the DrawTogether Grown-Ups Table at club.drawtogether.studio. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, working hosts June Thomas and Isaac Butler share their goals for the year ahead and devise strategies to help each other accomplish them. They also reflect on their resolutions from last year and share how well they stuck to them. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
For this week’s episode of Working Overtime, hosts June Thomas and Isaac Butler discuss the value of finding people who can help take work off your plate and let you focus on your primary tasks. Isaac found employing a research assistant for both his books was an integral part of discovering and collating details. June has utilized software programs to stay productive and organized, yet both hosts are wary of the role that A.I. may play. They also discuss how other jobs such as copy editing, canvas stretching, and housekeeping can help you get through your work. Do you have a question about creativity? Reach out at (304) 933-9675 or email us at working@slate.com. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Cameron Drews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, we revisit host Isaac Butler's conversation with Liz Stokes and Jon Pearce, who make up half of the New Zealand indie rock band The Beths. In the interview, Liz and Jon walk through their songwriting process step-by-step, from initial riffs and lyrics to their complex vocal harmonies and guitar solos. They also explain why the bridge is often the hardest part of a song to write. After the interview, Isaac and co-host June Thomas discuss why songwriting sometimes feels like magic. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Isaac’s daughter asks Liz and Jon some questions of her own! Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host Isaac Butler is joined by actor, writer, director Erik Jensen for a frank conversation about his recent cancer diagnosis and the challenges artists face holding on to health-care coverage, especially in the age of streaming. They go on to discuss Jensen’s continued creative activity, including a new film project he co-directed with his wife and acted in with his daughter. Later, Jensen explains some of the intricacies of the recent writers’ and actors’ strikes. After the interview, co-host June Thomas joins Isaac to talk about the value of being candid about the financial realities of being a freelance artist. They also dive into creative collaborations and the importance of communicating clearly with the people you work with. Learn more about Erik Jensen’s story and make a donation here. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Cameron Drews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
For this week’s episode of Working Overtime, hosts June Thomas and Isaac Butler discuss the need to keep good health as a creative person. Both June and Isaac have had their health scares, June in the dental world, and Isaac with his back. We’ve all been enchanted by the chain-smoking, heavy-drinking, sleepless poet, but the truth is that mistreating your body can catch up with you and eventually impede your creative output. Do you have a question about creativity? Reach out at (304) 933-9675 or email us at working@slate.com. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Cameron Drews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host June Thomas talks to Val McDermid, a prolific crime novelist whose books have sold millions of copies worldwide. Val has even been dubbed the “Quine of Crime,” a Scottish alternative to the title “Queen of Crime,” which the Agatha Christie estate objected to. In the interview, Val explains where her ideas come from and how she decides which of her on-going series to pick up next. She also talks about incorporating Scottish slang into her books, including her latest one, Past Lying: A Karen Pirie Novel. After the interview, June and co-host TK Dutes talk about the problem of having too many creative ideas. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Val discusses some of her side gigs. Then she talks about the practice of incorporating real-life events into her novels. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, guest-host Keisha “TK” Dutes talks to graphic designer, writer, and educator Gail Anderson, who specializes in the art of typography. In the interview, Gail talks about falling in love with printed lettering and her decision to become a designer in the first place. Then she discusses some of her specific work, including campaign buttons and posters, playbills for Broadway, and her Emancipation Proclamation U.S. postage stamp. After the interview, TK and co-host June Thomas talk about collecting inspiration from the outside world. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Gail discusses her position on the Citizen Stamp Advisory Committee, which helps to select and approve official postage stamps. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In this episode, Elie Mystal (attorney and writer) joins Prudie (Jenée Desmond-Harris) to answer letters about what to do when you're wary of "cancel culture" but want to hold a bad boss accountable, what to do when it feels like nobody cares about spreading germs, and whether slumber parties are “sending kids into trauma. If you want more Dear Prudence, join Slate Plus, Slate’s membership program. Jenée answers an extra question every week, just for members. Go to Slate.com/prudieplus to sign up. It’s just $15 for your first three months. Podcast production by Se’era Spragley Ricks and Daisy Rosario, with help from Brandon Nix. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
For this week’s episode of Working Overtime, hosts Nate Chinen and Isaac Butler are joined by Jaime Green, author of The Possibility of Life, for a discussion on “anchor jobs,” or gigs that can provide stability through the financial uncertainty of freelance work. All three have endured feast or famine periods and found that certain side jobs can create a protective scaffolding to help get through slower periods of work. The tricky part is not letting an anchor job turn into something that consumes all your creative energy and time. Do you have a question about creativity? Reach out at (304) 933-9675 or email us at working@slate.com. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Cameron Drews. Hosts: Nate Chinen and Isaac Butler Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host June Thomas talks to casting director and producer Logan Clark, whose credits include reality TV series like American Idol, The Masked Singer, and the excellent HBO reality series Legendary. In the interview, Logan explains how and why he got into reality show casting and what the job entails. Then he talks about the casting process for Legendary and the importance of featuring members of underrepresented groups on reality TV. After the interview, June and co-host Isaac Butler discuss both representation and exploitation in reality TV. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Logan talks about some of his very favorite reality TV shows. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week, host Isaac Butler talks to Kristoffer Borgli, the writer and director (and editor!) behind the new movie Dream Scenario, starring Nicolas Cage. In the interview, Kristoffer discusses the writing and revision process for Dream Scenario and explains how he tweaked the main character once Cage signed on. He also talks about why he shoots on film, why he likes to both direct and edit his work, and how he’s able to maintain good vibes on set. After the interview, Isaac and co-host Cameron Drews discuss the importance of flexibility in creative work. In the exclusive Slate Plus segment, Kristoffer talks about getting feedback from trusted friends. Then he explains why he invited Taiwanese bodybuilder and performance artist Frank Yang to crash at his house for a while. Send your questions about creativity and any other feedback to working@slate.com or give us a call at (304) 933-9675. Podcast production by Cameron Drews. If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and exclusive content on many shows—you’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Working. Sign up now at slate.com/workingplus to help support our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
