Daniel Sieberg
Co-Founder, Chief Content Officer: GoodTrust
Director, Innovation Marketing, Moody's
Author: The Digital Diet (2011); Digital Legacy (2020, w/ Rikard Steiber)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielsieberg/
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Katty
Welcome to the artisan podcast as we welcome Daniel Seiberg as our next guest. Daniel is the Co-founder and Chief Content Officer of Good Trust and the Director of Innovation Marketing at Moody’s. But above all, Daniel is a storyteller. Throughout his career he has told stories of brands and stories of people as a journalist, as an author, as an entrepreneur. He has traveled to over 70 countries and has worked in marketing, communications, product, and partnerships at many well known companies including Google as well as many news outlets. I’m so excited to have Daniel here so that we can talk about storytelling and how that impacts interviewing and how we can show up as our authentic selves, not only to an interview but any role that we start. So, with that, let’s welcome Daniel.
Daniel
Hi, Katty. It’s wonderful to be with you and dwell in possibilities as the sign over your shoulder reads and talk about storytelling. Probably one of my favorite subjects.
Katty
Yeah, thank you. I was fascinated when we had met a few weeks ago just to talk about the concept of storytelling and wanted to bring that to the audience here. Obviously, the audience who listens here are all storytellers… whether they're visual storytellers, or writers, or marketers. But this concept of storytelling is so important, and as we are recording this, the gardeners have come. So for the audience, just giving you a little warning if you're hearing noise, it’s out of my control.
Daniel
This is all part of our story right now.
Katty
This is the story of working from home.
Daniel
Yes, exactly.
Katty
It is what it is.
Daniel
Yep, life in 2022.
Katty
Yep, we will speak loudly to overcome that. So, Daniel, how did you get started on this path? Let’s go there first.
Daniel
Yeah, absolutely and I will keep my origin story relatively tight. I would just say that my father spent his career as an engineering electronics technician working with oceanographers who went to the North Pole to study climate change. So I was exposed to the “how does anything work” kinds of questions from an early age. My family believes in service and my sister is a nurse practitioner. So that's a little bit of my orientation in the world.
And then coupled with that, my maternal grandmother died of complications from Alzheimer's and I can distinctly remember what it was like to see her at her 75th birthday party, and as an awkward 14-year-old walk up to her with a present and for her to say, “Oh, this is lovely, dear, thank you, and who are you?” And for the two of us to sort of die in front of each other in that moment. So what struck me is the value of our stories and how we pass them on. How we convey them. They're sort of the storytelling or how we do that. There’s the tools that we use to tell those stories, there's the subject matter, that people, and everything wrapped up in what it means to tell a story and of course to listen, to receive, or to watch. So that, I think, is what ultimately pushed me into a career of being a journalist. In my case, it was science and technology. I did a master's degree in journalism with a focus of technology at The University of British Columbia…. a long time ago.
The arc of my career went through working at CNN, covering those subjects including space and environment, and on to CBS News, and ABC and then I pivoted away from being a practicing journalist, if you will, to focusing on technology and I would say helping others use technology to tell stories. So I spent several years at Google and helped to create a couple of teams in service of empowering newsrooms to use technology to tell stories in new ways with data through different tools, training journalists, helping to identify new markets and thinking about success metrics and a lot of stuff that newsrooms are thinking about back then integrating that into their workflow.
And then left all of that about four and a half years ago and went into entrepreneurship. I continued to stay close to the idea of storytelling and I co-founded a blockchain startup at one point. I've been an advisor to many startups, started my own company that was about an immersive kind of AR augmented reality, virtual reality kind of an experience to communicate with people and hear stories of the past. A couple of years ago, I connected with a former fellow Googler who I didn't know and we embarked on this journey of co-writing a book together. And in parallel, building a company called Good Trust, which is all about this idea of digital legacy. So now that we have the first book I wrote was called Digital Diet, which was all about living with technology. And now here we are ten years later, and we're all sort of dying with it in sort of a morbid way. But this is the way that we've evolved through technology and how it captures our stories. And so, this is where I find myself, somewhere at that intersection of technology, storytelling, and all of us mere humans.
Katty
It speaks to me and it resonates with me, because I wrote a book about grief and that whole journey through loss and certainly, memories and stories of our loved ones are particularly near and dear to my heart. And making sure that we're preserving them and being able to share that legacy. But you bring up a digital legacy, and that's pretty interesting. And I think what I gathered from what I learned from that you had shared with me about your book, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's really kind of just being mindful and being aware of the digital legacy and the footprint that we're leaving behind. Right?
Daniel
Exactly, and I mean, to the degree to which if we look back or up into our family tree, if you will, and the creative output that became the sum total of someone's identity. So for example, we hope, maybe we're not all of us, many of us have an Ancestry or My Heritage profile, right? Particularly as we age, we start to think about how to capture all of that with just one or two generations earlier.
Maybe the artifacts that we have with those people are a postcard or to a letter, a handful of photos. You know, if the person lives into the 60s and 70s, maybe there's some video, but it's in a format is hard to share and hard to preserve. But now as we get into the 2000s, 2010s, 2020s, the output of each of us has grown exponentially that reflection of who we are. We create 10x of what we have on somebody's ancestry profile every day in our email, the photos that are found and you know, the accounts we have and social media posts and on and on. And if somebody had access to all of that, you know if I could see what my grandfather actually created or thought or did or said.
I would personally be fascinated by it. Now for somebody else to come across that maybe that starts to feel a little creepy, or there are privacy issues and ethics and all the rest of it. But I do think that awareness, part of it that you referenced, is something that we've thought a lot about with Good Trust, because if somebody passes away whether you're in your immediate family, or even a friend and you don't know that they have, you know, a Facebook, a LinkedIn, still have a MySpace, like all these places where they've got all this stuff, that's sort of an early challenge. And then on another level, is there some crypto somewhere that you don't know about? Is there a retirement account that somebody forgot to tell you about its password? And all of a sudden there were these pragmatic reasons to be aware of all of this too. So there's like the emotional and the pragmatic side to know all this.
Katty
And for sure, and I imagine now with creatives, and NFTs, that's a whole nother piece to keep track of.
Daniel
Exactly. You know, we've tried to create ways for people to do that through something we've called a digital vault, with kind of this notion that you can assign a trusted contact to help you to do this on your behalf after you pass away or to help somebody who is already a family of somebody who's already passed away to take care of all of this, because the reality is that the average person spends about, the exact number is, six hours and fifty-two minutes a day online. I think through the pandemic, that's probably gone up. Let's just say, most of your waking hours during the day are spent somehow connected to the internet.
How much of that time you actually are creating something you want to save and remember and pass on to people? Maybe it's like 10 to 20%, but still on a daily basis, that's a lot. I mean, just today, you know, if I go back to get those notifications of a memory and remember back on this day, right? And those are photos and like I do not want those photos to get lost. These are photos and it doesn't even have to be some huge occasion when anniversary or birthday. Sometimes it's those every day, I'm using air quotes for people who can't see us because “every day” moments where you know, your kids do something and you want to remember. When you were building a tree fort, and you know, those are the kinds of photos you want to pass on to people. So how to identify those, how do you pass them on in a way that feels tangible to someone else to do something on your behalf? This is really what we're talking about with digital legacy. It's the story of you, just in a digital capacity.
Daniel
And who gets to see it and who gets to access it. And these days, we have some AI ways to think about this. For example, you can animate a photo through our site where you can sort of bring it to life, if you will. So if you have a picture for let's say, you know, from 60 or 70 years ago, you can animate it in a way that the person now has some expressions and nice to feel like so you can kind of capture their essence a little bit more and share all of that.
There are other companies, there's one called HereAfter that allows you to have a conversation with somebody who has passed away. If you ask them some questions, so for example, if I asked you a series of 100 questions about your life, what Hereafter will do is take that data or you can do it on your own behalf and create a conversational AI experience so that you could learn about your history and you know, even after the person passed away, you have these memories and you can use your smartphone device. You know, be with the family and ask them questions. There's a video one called StoryFile, which you can do with video you can do as an app on your phone and it's now sort of talking to you, you know. And it could be somebody who's already passed away. They did this at the Illinois Holocaust Museum and at a certain point with Holocaust survivors, you could ask them questions. So this is the direction that we're going with the stories. They are being created in a digital way, preserved in a digital way, and now sort of passed on in this digital way.
Katty
Yeah, I was talking to someone yesterday actually on another podcast about augmented reality, And how cool would it be if we could create something where a hologram of a person passed could be a conversation that we're having.
Daniel
Absolutely. And, you know, today it's possible in a limited way for people who either have the money or the means to do that. So for example, Kanye West gave his wife at the time Kim Kardashian, a hologram of her deceased father, Robert Kardashian for her birthday and she could actually see it and interact with it and he was sort of speaking to her you know, if you will from the afterlife. There's an example of a mother in Korea, who her daughter had died at a young age seven or eight, horribly tragic event as tragic as anybody could imagine. And what this company offered her was a virtual reality experience to interact with her daughter. They created kind of a digital version of her daughter, and then the mom got to sort of say hi, and kind of, you know, bring her back to life if you will. The mom was so emotional and watching it is difficult, and there's some part of you that, or at least for me, that's conflicted, or you think, is this what she should be doing to deal with her grief or not. On the other hand, this is how she feels she wanted to do it. And maybe it's cathartic in some ways for her to experience all of this in that way. So,fascinating discussions about all that.
Katty
Yeah, for sure. I could talk to you about this for a long time, but for this podcast lets bring it back to creatives. And actually I think mostly sharing just in terms of the story we're telling about ourselves online. That's an important piece and we always on the recruitment side of our business, we're always talking to candidates about, what does your online presence depict? Is there a through line between what you say you want to do and how you've created your LinkedIn profile, for example. And then you have all these other assets that you're creating. So what could you share with us in terms of our online story? When it comes to branding, our personal brand and how that represents online? Is there something that we can tie that back into what is my story as a candidate, what's my story as a job seeker?
Daniel
Here's what I would say. First of all, for me personally, I'm going to call myself a digital immigrant insofar as you know, I didn't grow up with the Internet. And, you know, it became part of my life at a certain point. But for of course, a whole other generation that we're talking about, you know, millennials Gen Z, this is just what they know. And so their life is captured in this digital way from the beginning, if you will, right? Their parents are sharing photos of them and then they have a digital presence. So they have a digital self from day one to think about.
And I think what I wish I could tell my younger self was be authentic you in every case, whether it's something you're talking about in a broader public context, like social media, or something you're sharing a little more privately or whatever it is, just be the authentic you. Kind of imagine that somebody could either look over your shoulder or look at your account or see what you were posting, just be the same person, accept who you are. I've gotten better at doing as I’ve aged, I wish I sort of figured all this out much younger,because I think what can happen is that social media of course triggers our ego, this sense of projecting, and, you know, I think pulls out a lot of our insecurities. We may not be that person in our entirety.
When I worked at Google, we used to say that social media was a reflection of of someone's ego and search was more of your id, what are you really thinking? Right? So if you could see what people search history is versus what they posted on Facebook could be quite different. Right? And I think that prospective employers can now start to sense that if not detected you know, whether it's within your resume, does that line up with what you're saying you did or how you conduct yourself, all of those kinds of sensitivities to think about.
I think that the earlier on in your life that you can just be that one person no matter what the medium is. Just have that reflected out into the world. I just feel like the more confident you'll be, the more successful you'll be. But this is again, I wish I could tell my younger self all this in this sort of sense. It's easier to say than to do.
Katty
Yeah. Why do you think storytelling is so important? Why stories?
Daniel
You know, somebody told me once that there are six words that if you say that it's anybody, they will trigger a part of the brain and their words are, “let me tell you a story.” And there's something that's universal about stories and the way that it captures our attention, and our engagement and our curiosity. Some of the best sort of human traits are fired up when we know there's a story coming. What can we learn? What does this mean? What happened? Tell me more, right? And I think for anybody who has kids, when you stop reading this story, like halfway through they’re like no, no, no, no…. you have to keep going. And it's kind of wonderful in a way to see that because but it does require, it asks of us to be this listener and somebody who is paying attention, if you will. And I think that, to me, stories are the way that knowledge is passed on, yes, but perhaps more importantly, experience and wisdom.
For a time I had this idea of a product that was like a wisdom engine. These days, we think about the search for knowledge and understanding the facts and all of that, but what about all this tremendous wisdom that we all possess and how do we find that from other people? We can read about it and books and learn philosophy and all that. It used to be that we would sign up as human beings in a philosophy house that was what we sort of ascribed to a particular philosophy and that was our way of looking at the world, and we were a stoic and that's kind of what we thought and we talked about that and discussed it with people. These days of course, there's some of that with faith or with religion, but philosophically, I feel like stories contain so much of that philosophy and so much we can learn from them. And they manifest in different ways, movie, TV show, a commercial, an ad can be a little bit of a story, a website, an email.
I just think that they are universal and there's a finite number of universal truths that appear in an infinite number of stories. It's when people would say there are really only 16 original stories in the world and they're a million different ways to tell the same story throughout history, but I think it's one of the best ways for people to learn, and to capture something that feels fundamentally important as human beings. We started by trying to tell people things through cave drawings…look, just pay attention to this thing. I don't know how to, speak your language or get you to listen to me, but I'm going to draw it here and just look at this thing, right?
And now people are scrolling through TikTok, and we start to lose people's attention spans.
This is my great concern with stories. Is that they're going to be lost, because people can't pay attention for more than a few seconds. When I watch films now, I'm like, can we hold a shot for longer than two seconds before we have to go to the next thing and the next thing. Let's read the person's expression, let's sit for a second in this moment. I get that the world's moving at a faster pace, and I don't want to be the fuddy duddy who's like can we go back to fax machines and slow things down? I'm on the cutting edge, I like being out on the frontier,but there's something about a linear understanding of something that requires the story to capture people's attention and to learn. And if you weren't able to do that or don't have that opportunity, I feel like we're losing something as a species as a society. I'll get off my soapbox now.
Katty
I agree because I think stories pull you in. As you said, “let me tell you a story”, and that naturally just makes people lean in and ask, ”what's coming next?” Question for you, kind of going back to candidates and interviewing. How can one tell their story in a short way? Are there any tips in terms of how a candidate in an interview can just authentically show who they are whether it's through their resume or in the interview process that is concise? They can't start the interview with like, let me tell you a story. But you know, a traditional question is like, “tell me about yourself?” “How did you get started?” So are there any recommendations that you can leave our audience with in terms of how to be able to weave their story into the facts of what it is that they do?
Daniel
I love when people can tell a story. I'm going to see if I can just wrap this in the right way but like, a humbly confident manner. So in other words, they're aware, they're self aware enough in their place in their own story, such that they can tell it in a sort of an articulate way. They can describe what they learned, maybe throughout their life and in their career. But they're not saying it in a way that's sort of like well, “I've figured it all out and just like everybody out of my way, obviously you should hire me!” It's more of a journey and kind of giving you a sense of how they got here. And I love being pulled into those stories and people talking about you know, I I went through this health scare, but I what I discovered about myself was this, and then I went on to create this thing, and I thought I had figured it all out but then this happened, and then I joined up with this person and we built this thing. I love hearing those stories. I remember when I was in journalism, early journalism classes, I had a writing professor who said, anytime you write a biography about somebody, you've got to include a nose picker. Like a something about the person that isn't this lofty, they were this great, whatever, right? We all have our nose pickers about ourselves. Nobody's a perfect person.
I think when we go into an interview, the sense is to project, I'm perfect, not only am I perfect, but I'm perfect for the job, and clearly you should hire me and let's get to it. Sometimes I think younger people are unsure of where the balance is, they don't want to seem like they're not confident, on the other hand, if you're overconfident people tend to sort of lean back a little bit. They're like, alright, well, sorry the room isn't big enough for your ego. So I think there's some amount that needs to come into how you convey yourself and just admit that you have your own failings, right? We all have our nose picker kind of things that we can highlight.
The classic kind of thing when people say “what's a negative attribute you would say about yourself?” The one that people have been told not to say it's like, I'm too much of a perfectionist. I just wanted to write “Oh, are you Oh, you're too much of a perfectionist?” Versus If someone were to ask me what is my nose picker? I would say I've done lots of different personality tests, so it's sort of a scary and exciting to kind of learn these things about yourself. But I feel like one of the things for me that can be a nose picker is that I consider myself a leader with passion, somebody who wants to move forward as solutions oriented. “Hey, everybody, like let's go this way. We'll figure it out. Like come on, like how can you do this? Great, awesome idea. Let's do it.” Right? And then the flip side of that, in terms of the optics of it is that it can be seen a little too intense. So people are like, Okay, well Daniel, slow down and let's pause for a minute and talk about all this and do more measures. So, I can get caught up in my head overthinking that too. So I love when I can observe somebody else who's great at all of this, this kind of being humbly confident or whoever you sort of think about it, and observing them and saying like, I want to be like that. That's how I want to be getting out of my own way sometimes because I think also I can be able to be Canadian.I’m from Canada originally I feel like I'm an honorary New Yorker after 16 years, but I can be a little too Canadian and think, I need to defer to others or not be as you know, little forthright in what I think are my opinions.
And Canadian are terrible at apologizing all the time and wanting to be liked because we're just just like America's hat, up there and you know, “Gosh, darn it, I hope people will think we're all right in the world.” And, so rather than being this kind of like bold, American I know it's we can do this and, might so often they're in there like just wrestling way and I tried to smooth those waters to some degree and be a little more of like the calm like the duck, with the feet under the water paddling and I’m just the duck. I don’t wanna say Swan, I don’t quite put myself in that category.
Katty
But they’re paddling really, really fast!
Daniel
They are paddling really fast. There's definitely that side of me, beneath the surface. But I know people don't like to see that because it makes them anxious.
Katty
Yeah, exactly. That's so funny. It brings it back to authenticity, right like if you're in that interview, and you can't show up as who you are then.
Daniel
Yeah. And if for whatever reason, it doesn't work out and oh my gosh, we've all had those moments. Then you sort of say okay, just wasn't meant to be. And I think that this is something else I've needed to learn over the course of my career is that the more you can be your authentic self and live in the moment and whatever's going on and accept that you know, there will be an outcome from that. It may not be exactly what you'd imagine. If it isn't, then okay, but maybe sort of no expectations, I think is another thing. I think we all sometimes put high expectations and put it on ourselves or in a situation where we want to stay and we push ourselves and that can come across too or it's like just wow, okay, whoa…iit goes back to the intensity. And so I think I've needed to regulate that and modulate that in some ways. And just, you know, a little bit the, you know, Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers has asked children to, or ask parents to say to their children, I love you just the way you are.
And I think if you can do that with yourself in a little bit of a self affirming sort of way, which I know that this can all sound a little too out there for some people, but if you can have these kinds of conversations with yourself, and really like who you are, and when you go into a job interview, or to have a discussion with somebody, allow that authentic self to come out. Ideally, it connects with that person. And if it doesn't, then it wasn't meant to be and rather than sort of regretting it, or trying to force it, think okay, on to the next. See that there's always another adventure or opportunity out there.
Katty
Yeah, good point. If we don't show up as our authentic self, and we put on airs during the interview, certainly, that's something that when we show up to the job, day after day, day after day, it has to be our authentic self. There's no way that we would want to or even can hold up a pretense. It's just not going to work. It's not going to be the right job.
Daniel
Exactly, it's not and that's when you drift into, I don't know if people have read Catcher in the Rye recently but you start to become Holden Caufield and you just feel like a phony, and I have had jobs where I felt like phony, because I sort of got my way in the door, if you will and then by the end, then a month or two months later, you know, it started to feel awful. And then it just goes down. And it's really hard to recover from that. And so, rather than trying to come up with this fake story.
When I interviewed younger people now I would rather they told me that they don't have a ton of experience, but they really want to learn, or that they haven't done this thing yet, but they did this thing and here's what they discovered.
At Google, when we would hire people, and I was involved in a lot of different interviews and hiring people at Google. I think you could actually get a badge internally, I think, mine got up to 75 or whatever it was six years. So anyway, enough people that I loved just that experience. And there were different quadrants to assess as people would come in: role related knowledge and, what was their experience and just all this stuff, and Googliness was one that people still probably have a hard time kind of figuring out. The one that to me that was most important was categorized as GCA, so general cognitive ability. The way that was expressed to me was not is the person smart or not, or what was the SAT… that doesn't matter. It's could that person, if you brought them in under one particular job description, and let's say that product went away, for whatever reason, sunsetted, wasn't renewed or funded again..could that person be moved over to a completely different job, different team, different product and perform and excel in that environment, because they have that general cognitive ability to adapt to a whole different thing? If the answer is yes, that you think that that person scores high there, that to me was the most valuable aspect of evaluating somebody. Because that's what we're all asked to do, is to adapt, be solutions oriented, have the growth mindset, all of these attributes we look for people. When I came across somebody who I felt possessed that, and there are people who I hired at Google who are still there, and I love seeing the arc of their career, and in my head, I'm like, I knew that they would be that person. I'm like, I told you, Google people, I don't work there anymore. You know what I mean, I'm in the background cheering them on, because I think this is exactly what companies need,are these people who can who have that neuroplasticity, and growth mindset and can adapt because companies change even big companies that think they're never going to change?
Katty
Yeah, one of our core values at Artisan is agility of thought and action, because at least in the 27 years we've had Artisan our clients have changed drastically from exacto knives and paste up boards to where we are today. And they will probably continue changing and evolving like we were just talking about AR and VR and where the world is going. So, agility fits into GCA, general cognitive abilities. I’ll ask you this as a final question, did you have a favorite interview question that you always asked? I always hear Google questions are pretty unique but what was your favorite question to ask?
Daniel
I know some of the Google questions, I’m mean, there are even like sites dedicated to like trend questions. And for a long time they were like, the question is, like, why is a manhole cover round, you know just these kinds of random things, right. I don't know, because the equipment anyway, people would obsess over these things, right?
I gave a talk about this recently about failure, and what it means to fail and I always loved hearing people share their stories of failure. And to me, if people have that failure story, they know what that failure moment was and they can identify it and they can express it and talk about it in a way that you can see that they've clearly evolved through it and taken what they can from it.
I read recently about the concept of failure compost that even though you may have failed, the project, failed idea whatever it was, you can sort of take some of that and turn it into fertilizer for your next project.
Katty
Yeah, like that.
Daniel
I'm gonna give full credit to the Google X team. It was part of a moonshot email, but they were describing this whole concept of failure compost. I just think there's something wonderfully sort of like a virtuous cycle of, of life almost in a way because people can put so much of themselves into something that fails and if, if you can go through that and see how it refined you, and then come out the other side, and remember to not identify yourself as a failure, and to be able to say, Yes, I failed,but here's what I learned and I'm ready for the next thing.
I mean, you know, someone like Michael Jordan is famous for his success, of course. But one of his quotes that I think people love to follow up on is the number of times he missed shots, was was given the ball at the last second to win the game and missed and he says, you know, I failed over and over and over again, and that's why I succeeded. It's such a powerful way to think about success.
I mean, there's a tremendous book by Srikumar Rao, who is at Columbia Business School Professor has this whole framework around how to approach your life and business and really the book is called Are you ready to succeed? And to me the flip of that, of course, is in your head like, are you ready to fail? No, I don't want to fail. But so how do you kind of think about that and cope with it and, and ideally thrive out of those kinds of situations. So anyway, that was my favorite question,and I always loved hearing about it. There's never any judgment. I mean, it's not. So I just loved having those conversations with people.
Katty
Well, it brings us back to being authentic. Right? You can not be authentic if you've never failed before, because we all have at some point, we've all fallen down and then gotten up, dusted ourselves off and said, Oh, right now what now? Where do I go?
Daniel
I think it gets to a path of trust much faster. Especially in an interview or when you're meeting somebody for the first time, if you can acknowledge that place. Because you know that to me is what helps to build and broker trust is, and ideally when you get the job, and you go through that together, and you fail, you succeed, that brings people together. It's like connective tissue being in the trenches you’re figuring it out together. But if you can kind of get that in the early moments with somebody and kind of understand it and be a bit vulnerable. I just think they're on a great path.
Katty
Beautiful, beautiful words, and I think a great lesson, just the authenticity. I see it so much when we interview hundreds of candidates in a given time period and I cannot tell you how many people have told me, that when I've asked them so what happened at the previous job? Why did you leave? Like hardly anyone's ever says that I was fired. And then you do a reference check and it comes back but they were fired. We'll just say it just, just say and share why and not have these surprises in the little box that’s going pop up like a little Jack in the Box.
So this goes back to what you were saying just being authentic. What's the lesson learned, what happened, what were the circumstances, what did you do, what did you not do, and what have you learned from that?
Daniel
Exactly. Well, I think the gardeners must have stopped to listen in on our conversation or something.
Katty
Yeah, it’s nice and quite. They’re done. They were buzzing away at the height of our conversation so I’ll listen and see what they said but you know what.. we’re being authentic here, so.
Daniel
We persevered through it.
